Stereo Tool
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Stereo Tool 6.22 BETA
https://forums.stereotool.com/viewtopic.php?t=4102		 Page 27 of 39
Author:  shckrck [ Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.22 BETA
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But this is what they do in a studio? Again, is that necessary? Then I just don't get it at all... Why use a de-clipper if you are only going to make it even louder afterwards? Like I said, I'm a noob. :D
Well, because the clipper in Stereo Tool doesn't cause the type of distortion that the declipper fixes. On top of that, on traditional processors the clipping in the source material is actually punishing you 3 times:
1. There's clipping in the original
2. The AGC is usually PEAK based instead of RMS/ITU-1770 based as the one in Stereo Tool, so clipped audio comes louder out of the AGC than non-clipped (and especially dynamic) audio
3. There's a phase rotation used normally, which moves the flat parts to the center, and the 'good' parts to the peaks. So then when you clip it again (and all clippers except for the ones in the Omnia 9, Breakaway and Stereo Tool cause distortion here) you're adding distortion at the only places in the signal that didn't have distortion at the start.

Result: Au :?
OK, makes more sense now. Thanks. :)
Author:  eldoradofm [ Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.22 BETA
When people hear a loud radio station they tend to listen to that station when they are tuning for one. And skip the softer ones because they might think they are not received as good.
Author:  shckrck [ Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.22 BETA
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So when you broadcast something as loud as your example over FM, it will sound normal on a radio? And if you don't make it this loud before broadcasting it will be too soft?
Maybe we should tell all radiostations that the loudness war is over. And that from now on we only gonna play with minimal processing.
Good idea, but don't forget to send the record company's a mail also. :)
Author:  eldoradofm [ Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.22 BETA
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So when you broadcast something as loud as your example over FM, it will sound normal on a radio? And if you don't make it this loud before broadcasting it will be too soft?
Maybe we should tell all radiostations that the loudness war is over. And that from now on we only gonna play with minimal processing.
Good idea, but don't forget to send the record company's a mail also. :)
Yes this will be a long mailinglist :D
Author:  Brian [ Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.22 BETA
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@Brian, may i ask you where you use stereo tool for primarily? Do you have some stream? Or is it just for listening music? Or even something else.
It's for listening to music, from a non-broadcasting perspective.

In case it has not become painfully obvious what my point is...

-------> You folks that are broadcasters are driving some issues that are important to you, but cascade down on the rest of us! <------

It happened with the hole-punching stuff once already. That is something that not a single one of us as non-broadcasters really needed. Fortunately, that code ended up being able to be toggled on/off, but I'm wondering that if some of us hadn't started going "uhhh, what are you all talking about????", it might not have been.

Image

The whole "till your ears bleed" is all well and good and stuff, but as someone else stated, the loudness wars "are" (should be) OVER. The whole point behind BS-412 is to keep the power down. The whole point behind BS-1770 is for standardized measurement of loudness... Or is that 128? I don't know. Most of this stuff is Europe-centric, which is what baffles me about all this, because I know Bojcha is in Europe, and I thought you were too (???)

My opinion remains that you all are making Hans chase something that could easily be rectified by toning down the settings. I think it is unreasonable to expect "volume control to 11" settings that are clear as a bell. That does not happen. As you drive a signal through to off-the-chart RMS levels, IT IS GOING TO DISTORT. That is a fundamental FACT. It is as much a fact as is 9.81 m/s^2 as the acceleration constant for 1 g.
Author:  eldoradofm [ Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.22 BETA
There are only a few countries in Europe as far as i know that use BS-412. Here in the Netherlands most of the big stations are very loud with lots of distortions.
And if we don't hear certain things with other processors at same loudness levels it must be possible to achieve that. But i agree with you that not all these options are for all users. In the end Hans has to choose for himself where he's going to work on and what will benefit his business. And sometimes one investigation leads to another discovery where also all other users benefit from.
Author:  Brian [ Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.22 BETA
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I told you once. that your prestet and ALL presets that uses gate like that are 100% not acceptable in broadcast world
EBU R 128.

As for the 1-minute thing, their gate was significantly higher.

Bass AGC comments - :shrug:
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Singleband: check again.. (press diff), it does not work almost at all. (so you said what you said just by watching meter" (?)
Nope. I listened to diff. What I hear is it is continuously working. That's what it really means when you press DIFF. You are hearing what is being REMOVED. It is constantly removing a lot of stuff across the entire frequency spectrum, and then removing even more on the loud spikes.
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Anyway, It's good that you don't hear what i hear, but then unlogical end evaluation.
:sigh:

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Author:  hvz [ Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.22 BETA
At least in the past, these voice vibrations were almost as bad (and sometimes even worse) at low Loudness levels. Not sure if that's still the case. Anyway, in the end, everyone benefits from fixes (even if a single fix has very little effect on the audio, if you go back a few versions you'll hear what I mean).

Although I guess the new multiband compressor will probably have much more effect.

For that I need to re-implement the GUI and parameter interface, and I want to release the current beta first.
Author:  shckrck [ Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.22 BETA
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@Brian, may i ask you where you use stereo tool for primarily? Do you have some stream? Or is it just for listening music? Or even something else.
It's for listening to music, from a non-broadcasting perspective.
If I might ask, what settings do you use? Not a broadcaster myself either, just want to get rid of that compressed sound that is on all CD's nowadays. :(
Author:  Brian [ Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.22 BETA
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There are only a few countries in Europe as far as i know that use BS-412. Here in the Netherlands most of the big stations are very loud with lots of distortions.
And if we don't hear certain things with other processors at same loudness levels it must be possible to achieve that. But i agree with you that not all these options are for all users. In the end Hans has to choose for himself where he's going to work on and what will benefit his business. And sometimes one investigation leads to another discovery where also all other users benefit from.
Perhaps, but I think existing settings could be changed to clean things up, it's just the documentation of what the settings do is, well, a bit sparse. I was not able to get close to the sound I wanted because I was just using the AGC settings that everyone else was using, because I made the incorrect assumption that those settings were good settings. Ultimately, due to lack of documentation, I think the old settings of like 300% for band 2 or whatever just ended up not making any difference as the bands pretty much get linked.

Anyway, I cannot help test this. All I can do is suggest that what is being heard is simply overdriven bass, and the vocal is actually fine. There is vibrato in the vocal itself, in the track, as it was sung / recorded. The higher volume level makes it stand out more, but it is a component of the recording, and would be present on the master. Since this is the case, it is not completely a StereoTool issue, and may not even be partially an issue. I'll have to leave that up to Hans to check with a transmitter, but bearing in mind that the vocalist is actually singing WITH some vibrato, so it is in the recording that way.
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