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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:01 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:34 pm
Posts: 217
Quote:
- Multipath: Added multipath clipper. No idea if this works. Feedback is welcome. Lower values will cause high frequency and stereo loss! Should work best with SSB enabled!
Can you tell us what you are doing here?
Quote:
Warnings:
1. This version contains a bug. I don't know what it is, but when I close it it crashes. This could lead to any type of weird behavior on other systems, so don't use it on-air yet!
I'm not sure if I'm missing something but it doesn't seem to be visibly crashing when I close the application.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:11 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:22 pm
Posts: 237
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I think "type standard" is not pure ssb yet, some signal is over 38kHz which the same mirrored signal has not well compensated level.
But very good work :)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:36 pm 
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Posts: 11425
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I think "type standard" is not pure ssb yet, some signal is over 38kHz which the same mirrored signal has not well compensated level.
But very good work :)
I know, but others do it the same way! Pure SSB - according to what I've read - is very problematic for many receivers. What for you mean by 'not well compensated'?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:47 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:22 pm
Posts: 237
Location: Poland
Quote:
Quote:
I think "type standard" is not pure ssb yet, some signal is over 38kHz which the same mirrored signal has not well compensated level.
But very good work :)
I know, but others do it the same way! Pure SSB - according to what I've read - is very problematic for many receivers. What for you mean by 'not well compensated'?
I must test it again yet, but crosstalk in mpx tool is not flat, so I think this small band signal above 38kHz is not compensated below 38 or not...
eg. 23-37 is 2x normal lever, so if signal is 1kHz above 38kHz then signal 37-39kHz is 1x...

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:05 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:24 pm
Posts: 156
Location: Germany
Quote:
Quote:
- Multipath: Added multipath clipper. No idea if this works. Feedback is welcome. Lower values will cause high frequency and stereo loss! Should work best with SSB enabled!
Can you tell us what you are doing here?
Good question, would like to know it, too :)
Quote:
I'm not sure if I'm missing something but it doesn't seem to be visibly crashing when I close the application.
Same case on my computer, doesn't crash when closing...

But nice work! Unfortunately, I don't have a TX laying around here at the moment, so real field-tests will follow in a few weeks :)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:14 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:54 pm
Posts: 56
Plan on testing, but not until late next week, unfortunately. Have to build a worthy machine, first.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:49 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:56 pm
Posts: 4231
Quote:
Hey Bojcha, do you have a link to your Win XP lite installation anywhere that would be well suited to this application? We trimmed down XP, but looking for a shortcut, this time, as we are formatting a machine from scratch. Thanks!!!!
Check PM.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:16 pm 
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I've done a test with beep tones, and the LSB/USB (Lower / Upper Side Band) separation seems ok.

The 'Multipath clipper' clips the maximum change per amount of time. Not too sure yet if this is good or not; oddly it seems to have less effects on DSB mode than on SSB mode which is the opposite of what I had expected.

Crashes: They happen on my pc. And that just means that on other pc's other strange things may happen - could be a crash, or something else. It definitely indicates a bug somewhere.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:07 am 
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The 3 SSB modes seem very similar, the last one is slightly less good - which means that, to reduce receiving effects, "Probably Optimal" should indeed be optimal.

I've tried the 3 different SSB modes with strong multipath clipping.
Basically, I clip fast differences in the signal, which I think is what causes multipath distortion.

To my surprise (although, not really, this actually matches a post I made a half year ago on some radio site), the first ('traditional') SSB mode seems to be WORSE then DSB, meaning that the multipath clipper has more effect! Here are all the results:

0. DSB mode.
This is what we will compare with.
1. SSB Traditional mode:
About 0.1 dB MORE highs loss. So this means that the waveform actually moves faster in this mode
2. SSB Probably Optimal mode:
About 0.1 dB LESS highs loss.
3. SSB Steep Optimal mode:
About 0.1 dB LESS highs loss.

2 vs 3: Nearly identical, but 3 is just slightly better (!). 0.03 dB or so.


My initial guess was that something happens around 12.667 Hz, because for a sound at this frequency, the LSB frequency is 38000-12667=25333 and the USB frequency is 38000+12667=50667, exactly twice as much. That's why I *think* that for frequencies above 12.667 kHz it's good to use SSB, for frequencies below it DSB is better, near 12.667 it doesn't matter match. That seems to correspond with the fact that method 3 seems to work best, this uses a filter that starts at 10 kHz and reaches SSB at 12.667 kHz.

It could however also be that 'tones' are better in DSB mode and hiss-like sounds in SSB mode. In that case, a separation at a slightly lower frequency (around 5000 Hz) would be better.

Real-world results would be very welcome to check if my ideas are correct!

Quote:
What my 'gut feeling' was telling me, and measurements that I did tonight now seem to confirm, is that SSB mode does not help against multipath distortion for lower frequency tones. A 1 kHz tone that's placed at 37 kHz, 6 dB louder, instead of at 37 and 39 kHz, doesn't help much, in fact overall it seems that it causes the FM modulation frequency to move faster than having both tones present at half-power.

What I think is that something special happens at 12666 Hz, since (38000-12666) * 2 = (38000+12666). So, my guess is that, to get less multipath issues, SSB would be useful for this and higher frequencies. On top of that, a clipper or limiter that limits the maximum modulation change in a given amount of time should help (although that also will hurt stereo separation and in case of very loud highs even mono audio quality).
I'll start working on the performance tomorrow, might be a bit problematic though.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:25 am 

Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:42 am
Posts: 123
Location: Australia
Quote:

Real-world results would be very welcome to check if my ideas are correct!
Hi Hans. Composite clipper & SSB are very cool. Love to real world test, but with FM licence activated, unauthorized options in use for mpx clipper means we can't put on air. How do we authorise? Thanks!


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