Stereo Tool :: Stereo Tool 5.02

wowowowowow!
I also disabled final limiter and :

1) dynamics puping is gone completely!!! yes yes yes!!
2) bass is cleaner and deaper !!!
3) music sounds louder and at the same time it has more dynamics ( to my ears!!)
4) much less DC sound phenomenon !
5) less CPU usage ! ( only 17 % in my intel 4core )
and finnaly .... LATEST STEREOTOOL IS LOUDER AND CLEANER THAN BREAKAWAY BY 30 % as mesured by orban loudness ..and my ears also..

Question in regards to CPU usage / SSE:

I use the Winamp plugin for just general home use, no broadcasting, so I too am interested in the improvements in the Final Limiter rather than abandoning it.

Anayway, the processing power needed has increased some over time, as has been noted. I see there was some mention of a processing library dropping SSE2 and SSE3 support way back with the 5.02 beta. Is that still the case?

Hi Brian and others,

No idea why you want to have a final limiter if the peaks never go over 100%. Well it sounds strange in digital audio anyway 1111111..1 you can't really go beyond that. ... except if you set the max volume below that certain (digital) level.
The fact that it doesn't really seem to clip, go over a certain level or cause audible distortion says to me that you don't need anything behind it.

There have been several tests performed on domestic CD players with signals known to produce inter-sample peaks, with interesting results. The tests indicate that some players are quite capable of handling the peaks without audible results, but some models produce audible clipping.

The loudness thing, well I guess it is just a name. Maybe Hans can define what it actually does?

Have you ever heard of intersample peaks ?
Now for most presets you have to set Post Amp to x 0.93 to avoid intersample peak distortion.
But when you disable the Final Limiter (and without loudness filters) you have to set Post Amp even much lower to avoid intersample peak distortion.

I would not touch anything...
Final limiter should be there. It's on user to decide to use it or not.
Final Limiter is not "$", so this balance of Final Limiter OR Loudness is good.

Quote:

SSE2 is still supported (that is, I'm using an older version of that library that still supported SSE2). And the SSE3/4/CoreDuo/... implementations that are also included are NOT faster (!). So I'm currently only including the SSE2 version.

Without Loudness, the CPU load is identical (give or take one percent) to that of version 5.02. Only if you enable Loudness it increases a lot.

Author:	Gtxx [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Stereo Tool 5.02
Quote: wowowowowow! I also disabled final limiter and : 1) dynamics puping is gone completely!!! yes yes yes!! 2) bass is cleaner and deaper !!! 3) music sounds louder and at the same time it has more dynamics ( to my ears!!) 4) much less DC sound phenomenon ! 5) less CPU usage ! ( only 17 % in my intel 4core ) and finnaly .... LATEST STEREOTOOL IS LOUDER AND CLEANER THAN BREAKAWAY BY 30 % as mesured by orban loudness ..and my ears also.. I'm no where near home right now but I have to try this out. My current preset isn't loud, it keeps the volume at a decent level, but I'm curious as to what turning the Final limiter will do. Please don't remove the final limiter though, thats one of the easiest way I know to keep the levels below 100% with only ONE SLIDER xD.

Author:	hvz [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Stereo Tool 5.02
Quote: Question in regards to CPU usage / SSE: I use the Winamp plugin for just general home use, no broadcasting, so I too am interested in the improvements in the Final Limiter rather than abandoning it. Anayway, the processing power needed has increased some over time, as has been noted. I see there was some mention of a processing library dropping SSE2 and SSE3 support way back with the 5.02 beta. Is that still the case? SSE2 is still supported (that is, I'm using an older version of that library that still supported SSE2). And the SSE3/4/CoreDuo/... implementations that are also included are NOT faster (!). So I'm currently only including the SSE2 version. Without Loudness, the CPU load is identical (give or take one percent) to that of version 5.02. Only if you enable Loudness it increases a lot.

Author:	michi95 [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Stereo Tool 5.02
Quote: Hi Brian and others, No idea why you want to have a final limiter if the peaks never go over 100%. Well it sounds strange in digital audio anyway 1111111..1 you can't really go beyond that. ... except if you set the max volume below that certain (digital) level. The fact that it doesn't really seem to clip, go over a certain level or cause audible distortion says to me that you don't need anything behind it. Yes, when you use loudness with one of latest betas. But not when we do not use loudness. Besides this it is not that simple as you might think. 100% (0 dB) is too much (that's why it is not a good idea to normalize to 100% !). Have you ever heard of intersample peaks ? Now for most presets you have to set Post Amp to x 0.93 to avoid intersample peak distortion. But when you disable the Final Limiter (and without loudness filters) you have to set Post Amp even much lower to avoid intersample peak distortion. So if you really want to know what you do, it helps to use a meter (plugin) post Stereo Tool that indicates intersample peaks better than Stereo Tool's built-in meter. Quote: There have been several tests performed on domestic CD players with signals known to produce inter-sample peaks, with interesting results. The tests indicate that some players are quite capable of handling the peaks without audible results, but some models produce audible clipping. http://www.solid-state-logic.com/music/x-ism/ or the TT Dynamic Range Meter.

Author:	hvz [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Stereo Tool 5.02
Quote: The loudness thing, well I guess it is just a name. Maybe Hans can define what it actually does? Basically it increases the volume, then clips it. It does some other neat things to make sure that the clipping doesn't cause (too much) distortion or pumping. (Due to that the clipping isn't perfect and you need Hard Limit as a final step.)

Author:	hvz [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Stereo Tool 5.02
Quote: Have you ever heard of intersample peaks ? Now for most presets you have to set Post Amp to x 0.93 to avoid intersample peak distortion. But when you disable the Final Limiter (and without loudness filters) you have to set Post Amp even much lower to avoid intersample peak distortion. Michi, I never knew that inter-sample peaks were an issue for non-FM signals??? For FM I filter them out (just turn FM on, keep everything in it (including pre-limiting etc.) disabled, and you should not have any inter-sample peaks left! The disadvantages of filtering them out is: 1. More Loudness artifacts (not much though without pre-emphasis because there isn't that much high frequency content) 2. Higher CPU load EDIT: THIS FILTER IS ONLY PRESENT IN LOUDNESS, NOT IN FINAL LIMITER!

Stereo Tool https://forums.stereotool.com/

Stereo Tool 5.02 https://forums.stereotool.com/viewtopic.php?t=2661	Page 91 of 99

Author:	hvz [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Stereo Tool 5.02
In the next BETA, Final Limiter will automatically be bypassed (display will still be there to allow volume calibration!) if Loudness is used.

Author:	Bojcha [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Stereo Tool 5.02
I would not touch anything... Final limiter should be there. It's on user to decide to use it or not. Final Limiter is not "$", so this balance of Final Limiter OR Loudness is good.

Author:	eldoradofm [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Stereo Tool 5.02
@bojcha, thanks for your reply. @camclone i'm very interested in your preset could you post it? @hans, i noticed DIFF isn't working for Final limiter in latest beta.

Author:	hvz [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Stereo Tool 5.02
Quote: I would not touch anything... Final limiter should be there. It's on user to decide to use it or not. Final Limiter is not "$", so this balance of Final Limiter OR Loudness is good. New setup would still contain Final Limiter, but bypass it if Loudness is used. They both do the same thing, only Loudness also boosts the volume (well, Final Limiter can also handle a small volume boost), and Loudness can handle all kinds of loud sounds while Final Limiter is aimed only at short spikes of too loud sounds. But there's not really a need to have Final Limiter if Loudness is used (before there was, because people complained that Loudness sounded worse without it).

Author:	Brian [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Stereo Tool 5.02
Quote: Quote: Question in regards to CPU usage / SSE: I use the Winamp plugin for just general home use, no broadcasting, so I too am interested in the improvements in the Final Limiter rather than abandoning it. Anayway, the processing power needed has increased some over time, as has been noted. I see there was some mention of a processing library dropping SSE2 and SSE3 support way back with the 5.02 beta. Is that still the case? SSE2 is still supported (that is, I'm using an older version of that library that still supported SSE2). And the SSE3/4/CoreDuo/... implementations that are also included are NOT faster (!). So I'm currently only including the SSE2 version. Without Loudness, the CPU load is identical (give or take one percent) to that of version 5.02. Only if you enable Loudness it increases a lot. I was hoping you'd say that SSE2 was not in use and you could implement it... Oh well... What kind of improvements do you think could be made to the Final Limiter?

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