Stereo Tool
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Stereo Tool 5.00 BETA
https://forums.stereotool.com/viewtopic.php?t=1798		 Page 8 of 18
Author:  DJ-DOGGY [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 5.00 BETA
Still not a Pre-limiter as expected.... (up and down speed causes up and down moving of sound in places when no bass for example) ... that`s not the point , so when the preamp operates with decibels(db) then pre-limiter must operates again with decibels(db) ....not with threshold , attack and divide ....
Pre-limiter must measure the gain and point it to 0db ( for example song with RMS -5 db amplified with 12.00 db (4 times) by the preamp , so pre-limiter must measure the gain of 7db for result and reduce the gain with 7db down .. then we have song with 0db level. And here is the user frendly slider from -10 to +10 db . If the slider is pointed to +5db then prelimiter following the example must reduce the gain with only 2 db . If the slider is pointed to -10db then the prelimiter must redice the gain with 17db to go at -10db level .. Think ABOUT IT , I think it`s quite easyer then this algorithm for Pre-limiter intergrated in stereotool . And most important ..This is the right method for Pre-limiting in broadcast.. And at last i forgot to say "4.22 have the best sounding" , in 5 version i see difference in sound ....badly difference :(
Author:  hvz [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 5.00 BETA
Hi DJ-DOGGY,

Reading what you wrote I'm thinking now that you're talking about a gain for the entire song. There are other tools to do that, but for Stereo Tool it's not possible - I don't get (Winamp doesn't feed) the entire song as input, just a few samples at a time. The Stereo Tool AGC now does work based on RMS volume, and makes it constant; you can use up/down speed to control how fast it responds (slower is closer to what you want).
Quote:
And at last i forgot to say "4.22 have the best sounding" , in 5 version i see difference in sound ....badly difference :(
Can you explain what you mean? What do you hear, and with which settings (and maybe also which song/type of sounds)?
Author:  DJ-DOGGY [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 5.00 BETA
mmm yes i can ... but first the idea of the prelimiter is exactly this in my explanation and if you understand me right :) there are many hardware devices with this option for output gain constant (no up down speed) . i mean that this up and down speeds cause sound variation witch is not acceptable in radio broadcast (when bass is gone sound goes loud and when comes back sound (middles and high`s gone down ) . Thatswhy the idea is to measure the rms level and only amplify or reduce of level .
Your idea is closely to the hardware devices .. but the prelimiter of this devices is exactly what i want to say with my post early today.
now for the sound : i see that in 4.22 with small speeds of multiband or prelimiter the sound is softer what must be , but in version 5 comes .... the sound is much saturated (like compresed) even with small speeds . hope i`m usefull
And please argree with me that a radio station must have nice soft and loud sound , not shity compressed like romanian stations like europaFM and KISSFM , if you know them ... it`s awfull man :( . that`s why it needs this prelimiter to be like i say before , because if i use high speeds of UP and DOWN the sound again goes saturated . Right ...the soft gives opotunity to make compressed sound but prelimiter must not do this in any case (he is make sound to go loud and down and the level is not constantly .... i noticed this please believe me . If user wants saturated sound he may use preamp at 12-15 db and only multiband :) believe me it`s perfect for saturated sound , even without prelimiter. If you allow me to give final words this soft is perfect but to be final broacast soft it must have volume leveler . I know that you may solve this problem , not many people have knowledge to do this (like i see you have) so this is not a problem for you i think.
Author:  Luke [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 5.00 BETA
Hi dj-doggy,

What you are asking is impossible or it is a misunderstanding. Because of latency you can only presample a couple of ms and not the entire song.
So if you only want a small delay of lets say like 100ms how can you calculate more than that?
Especially with the standalone it is virtualy impossible. With the winamp version I think you could have some peakfile somewhere but that would make things complex.
For the sound, well I really like v5. I can put it to almost transparant and have it loud. Just set release and attack to slow and don't excaturate the volume that is being compressed.
Author:  DJ-DOGGY [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 5.00 BETA
Hello Luke ...
You probably dont understand the idea
Hans said that they are many tools for volume leveling
And in this case it`s not about volume attack or something but only measure of level and set it .I think the tools that Hans talking about are not on this method to amplify (attaking) it`s only simple amplifying like He is doing with his preamp ....understand..?this tools even don`t have settings file to save like replaygain from FOOBAR
I think that his preamp can be turned in reducer and make it together automatical with manual pointed level .If you dont understand look at the REPLAYGAIN in FOOBAR (but there is file that store the options) .. is there any problem .. In my opinion this cost less Cpu (The method in his prlimiter is complex i think , volume is attacked ..then divided ... with some threshold ...and so on :) and finally volume is not constant enough... hope understand with my "perfect" english :) :) Real hardware does not have any attack time or divide time in prelimiter , this times are only for multiband . I can say that his multiband is right constructed (very well) !
Author:  hvz [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 5.00 BETA
Hi DJ-DOGGY,

It is possible, but NOT with a program like Stereo Tool. ReplayGain or Mp3Gain are examples that do this. For my own webradio station I'm using a separate program that analyses the sound of 8 frequency bands, and then controls them for the entire song so all songs are nearly identical - not just in volume but also in frequency content - before they even enter Stereo Tool. But, as I said, that requires using a separate tool.
Quote:
now for the sound : i see that in 4.22 with small speeds of multiband or prelimiter the sound is softer what must be , but in version 5 comes .... the sound is much saturated (like compresed) even with small speeds . hope i`m usefull
The new AGC might feed the sound into the multiband compressor at a different level than before, which in turn leads to higher (or lower) compression levels. Play with the "soft limit" slider of the AGC (I'll add an RMS dB-indicator to the level, just put that on my todo list) to find the best sound. And - indeed - use LOW levels for up and down speed, unless you WANT pumping. Also, make sure that you use a 2-band AGC, that should also greatly reduce any pumping effects. (You might want to increase the 'relative highs level' slider a bit, that also reduces pumping caused by loud lows.)
Author:  Bojcha [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 5.00 BETA
hi Doggy

well .. i must tell you that i do not agree with you here.

First, when you say "nice soft and loud sound" you forgot one more word and that is "constancy"
Constancy - That was the problem of "PreLimiter" in v4.22 because prelimiter worked more with peeks.
So, If you play "ABBA - Gimme! Gimme! Gimme!" Output sound was very low if you comare it with any song with High RMS level. Even now with AGC there is still difference but much less.

So, Constancy, You can't make it with peek leveling only by rms.

Other thing might help and that is gateing for AGC and multiband!

@Hans,
Can we listen that webradio? :)
Author:  Marino [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 5.00 BETA
Omnia has an interesting way of handling this. They call it Make-Up gain:
http://omniaaudio.com/manuals/6ex/download
Author:  DJ-DOGGY [ Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 5.00 BETA
And why dont you agree with me ... for nice and loud sound it`s perfectly enough to have the multiband slider to LIMIT and that`s all ... peaks above 0db with slow speeds are great , just great ...... like i said in other posts , i`ve tested all versions and multiband work just perfect in this case
So.... everything is allright with constancy you said ....
Simple constant RMS by prelimiter and multiband for peaks or precision limiting with middle speeds (Believe me it`s perfect ) .But up down speeds are not for everything. Hans know it better then Me ...... i just give him the right method for broadcast because i`ve seen a lots of hardware how it works ...thatswhy :) All i mean is normalizer (volume normalizer to 0db) Anyway have a nice night and be happy
Author:  DJ-DOGGY [ Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 5.00 BETA
I found what i Need Hans . Thanks to FOOBAR . I know it before but dont work for me . Now people make it works , Great
It`s about FOOBAR plugin Vlevel Look at that , You will find the truth and what i mean .
Remember ! If you integrate the work of this plugin into Stereotool Or whole plugin (I don`t know) , You will be the God man . i found the solve of this problem , but i want Stereotool to be the powerfull tool for FM , believe that . At last I`m thinking of having this product , you know.. "This sound Processed by Stereotool , go to Stereotool.com for information" . Hope this will be fact soon . I`ll be in touch for news

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