Stereo Tool :: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA

Hans,

Is there any chance of getting the limiters removed from coupling before you finish this release? As one leans on the limiters more, it's easier to hear. Also, can you confirm that when left/right coupling is enabled in the MB section that the limiters still operate in an uncoupled fashion? That would definitely be preferential.

Hans i prefer the first placement being stretched than how the second one looks (current one is the second one)
My resolution is 1440x900 and my display is 19 inch Widescreen.

Too much work, I'm going to do this afterwards. There are so many changes already and the sound - compared to 7.51 - is too much improved to not release now. But, I do have this on the todo list.

I'm not sure about the left/right thing, but I'm pretty sure that it's a bad idea to limit them completely separately - if a sound is a bit louder on one channel than on the other it will sound really bad (that's my experience with the AGC anyway).

Quote:

Too much work, I'm going to do this afterwards. There are so many changes already and the sound - compared to 7.51 - is too much improved to not release now. But, I do have this on the todo list.

Understood. It is a huge improvement, so whenever you get to it is fine.

Quote:

I would disagree, but you should at least make it an option. The MB limiters are not generally doing so much GR that it would cause a noticeable shift in the stereo sound stage. I'm not sure why you thought something along those lines sounded bad in the past, are you sure that was in the limiters?

The idea of L/R coupling is just to preserve the stereo image as recorded. Doing this in the slow gain stages makes a lot of sense. But when extremely quick gain changes happen, it can be disconcerting to have audio temporarily "disappear" in one channel due to a sudden gain change in the other channel.

Maybe it's not so much of a problem because it works in multiple bands and the limiter responds very quickly.

Quote:

Hans i prefer the first placement being stretched than how the second one looks (current one is the second one)
My resolution is 1440x900 and my display is 19 inch Widescreen.

Ah, ok. That's just the default behavior at a specific screen size.

Later
[...]
- Choose one or two of the band linking methods -> I think I should keep method 1 or 2, and 4. And make a checkbox (non-linear behavior) instead of a slider to turn mode 4 on. -> Kept method "2" and "4" (non-linear mode)
[...]

Quote:

Maybe it's not so much of a problem because it works in multiple bands and the limiter responds very quickly.

I would expect that this being in the MB section would help it not sound unnatural, but only with experimentation could we know for sure. Think of it this way, I'd shutter to think of what clipping the audio in both channels due to a peak in just one channel might sound like. The limiters are just a somewhat slower version of that.

And when you load the 2-band structure in the 8200 you can directly see the left and right HF gain reduction in the display.

Author:	hvz [ Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA
Quote: Hans, Is there any chance of getting the limiters removed from coupling before you finish this release? As one leans on the limiters more, it's easier to hear. Also, can you confirm that when left/right coupling is enabled in the MB section that the limiters still operate in an uncoupled fashion? That would definitely be preferential. Too much work, I'm going to do this afterwards. There are so many changes already and the sound - compared to 7.51 - is too much improved to not release now. But, I do have this on the todo list. I'm not sure about the left/right thing, but I'm pretty sure that it's a bad idea to limit them completely separately - if a sound is a bit louder on one channel than on the other it will sound really bad (that's my experience with the AGC anyway).

Author:	hvz [ Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA
Quote: Hans i prefer the first placement being stretched than how the second one looks (current one is the second one) My resolution is 1440x900 and my display is 19 inch Widescreen. Ah, ok. That's just the default behavior at a specific screen size.

Author:	weskeene [ Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA
Quote: Too much work, I'm going to do this afterwards. There are so many changes already and the sound - compared to 7.51 - is too much improved to not release now. But, I do have this on the todo list. Understood. It is a huge improvement, so whenever you get to it is fine. Quote: I'm not sure about the left/right thing, but I'm pretty sure that it's a bad idea to limit them completely separately - if a sound is a bit louder on one channel than on the other it will sound really bad (that's my experience with the AGC anyway). I would disagree, but you should at least make it an option. The MB limiters are not generally doing so much GR that it would cause a noticeable shift in the stereo sound stage. I'm not sure why you thought something along those lines sounded bad in the past, are you sure that was in the limiters? The idea of L/R coupling is just to preserve the stereo image as recorded. Doing this in the slow gain stages makes a lot of sense. But when extremely quick gain changes happen, it can be disconcerting to have audio temporarily "disappear" in one channel due to a sudden gain change in the other channel.

Author:	hvz [ Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA
Quote: Quote: Too much work, I'm going to do this afterwards. There are so many changes already and the sound - compared to 7.51 - is too much improved to not release now. But, I do have this on the todo list. Understood. It is a huge improvement, so whenever you get to it is fine. Quote: I'm not sure about the left/right thing, but I'm pretty sure that it's a bad idea to limit them completely separately - if a sound is a bit louder on one channel than on the other it will sound really bad (that's my experience with the AGC anyway). I would disagree, but you should at least make it an option. The MB limiters are not generally doing so much GR that it would cause a noticeable shift in the stereo sound stage. I'm not sure why you thought something along those lines sounded bad in the past, are you sure that was in the limiters? The idea of L/R coupling is just to preserve the stereo image as recorded. Doing this in the slow gain stages makes a lot of sense. But when extremely quick gain changes happen, it can be disconcerting to have audio temporarily "disappear" in one channel due to a sudden gain change in the other channel. That last thing is exactly what I meant. I haven't heard it with the current limiters so I could be completely wrong here. It did happen - and sounded really bad - in (much) older versions of the AGC, where I had a sudden spike remove filter that sometimes pushed one channel down without pushing the other down. Of course this would only happen if the levels aren't identical in the first place - but your ears get used to a specific balance between left/right and if one channel hits the limiter and the other doesn't I would expect it to sound bad. Maybe it's not so much of a problem because it works in multiple bands and the limiter responds very quickly.

Author:	weskeene [ Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA
Quote: Maybe it's not so much of a problem because it works in multiple bands and the limiter responds very quickly. I would expect that this being in the MB section would help it not sound unnatural, but only with experimentation could we know for sure. Think of it this way, I'd shutter to think of what clipping the audio in both channels due to a peak in just one channel might sound like. The limiters are just a somewhat slower version of that.

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Author:	mpex2006km [ Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA
Quote: Quote: Hans i prefer the first placement being stretched than how the second one looks (current one is the second one) My resolution is 1440x900 and my display is 19 inch Widescreen. Ah, ok. That's just the default behavior at a specific screen size. So is there a way to change that? One question from what i can see i understand that the gui has a "on the fly" resize algorithm. So why not making it possible to allow the user to resize the menus and meter on the fly. What i mean is to allow the user to move the meters (up and down) like the menu strip moves (left and right). Thank you very much Hans for taking into account my ideas and "problems". That is Appreciated (PS i only ask if it is possible to make the gui resizable . If it is a PITA then it doesn't matter of course)

Author:	RobertSack [ Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA
Quote: Later [...] - Choose one or two of the band linking methods -> I think I should keep method 1 or 2, and 4. And make a checkbox (non-linear behavior) instead of a slider to turn mode 4 on. -> Kept method "2" and "4" (non-linear mode) [...] Thanks Hans! It´s great that you take method 4 into consideration. Kind Regards, Robert

Author:	RobertSack [ Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA
Quote: Quote: Maybe it's not so much of a problem because it works in multiple bands and the limiter responds very quickly. I would expect that this being in the MB section would help it not sound unnatural, but only with experimentation could we know for sure. Think of it this way, I'd shutter to think of what clipping the audio in both channels due to a peak in just one channel might sound like. The limiters are just a somewhat slower version of that. I think especially in the higher frequency range a separate left/right limiting would make sense. Also in the Optimod 8100 (also in the 8200`s 2-Band structure and in the 2200) this is the case and so indicated. At 8100 and 2200 there are separate left and right HF-limiting LED`s. And when you load the 2-band structure in the 8200 you can directly see the left and right HF gain reduction in the display.

Author:	Action [ Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA
Quote: And when you load the 2-band structure in the 8200 you can directly see the left and right HF gain reduction in the display. What about the 5 band mode ? Pretty sure I havent seen any separate L/R limiting there, it is just not present in the display or not present at all ? If the latter, I would imagine they were trying to save cpu cycles for other things because 10 years later, in the 8400, they included uncoupled L/R compression/limiting everywhere.

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