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Stereo Tool 6.00
https://forums.stereotool.com/viewtopic.php?t=2811		 Page 29 of 72
Author:  michi95 [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.00
Hans, there is still a little bug loading STS (Noise Gate settings only ?) in VST version:
viewtopic.php?p=8312#p8312
Author:  hvz [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.00
Something is really odd in the 512 sample latency Multiband behavior.

The following values are based on a changed Multiband version that I have not yet posted! In this new version I've changed the content of band 3 to reduce large volume effects and to reduce clipping artifacts.

To get roughly similar behavior to 4096 sample latency, I need to make the following changes (based on the default settings):
- Band 1: soft limit = 0.78 (!) Yes, that low!
- Band 2: soft limit = 3.56
- Band 3: soft limit = 8.31
- Band 4: soft limit = 7.63

Others unchanged.

With these settings, Steepness immediately has far less effect because normally bands 1-3 behave much alike - which is what I want!

Building now...


What I've changed:
Multiband band 3 sounded bad at latency 512 (clipping sounded horrible, and the volume was reduced too far by default).

As I mentioned earlier, processing in Multiband is done based on 'bins' rather than bands, and at 512 sample input, each bin is 44100/512 = 86 Hz wide.

Band 1 = almost nothing (should be silence, but for some reason it's not...)
Band 2 = 0-86 Hz
Band 3 = 86-258 Hz, which is very big!

I changed the frequency content of band 3 so now it's 86-172 Hz. Band 4 contains a bit more (I also moved band 5 a bit to compensate for that).

This reduces the Band 3 clipping artifacts and reduces the big volume effect.

Note: This change only applies if you DON'T change the frequencies of band 3-6.
Author:  hvz [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.00
BETA601-016:
- Changed Multiband behavior at latency 512 (frequency content of band 3 and 4 changed, re-enabled Clipping for band 3).
- Displayed multiband levels were unreliable at low latencies, especially clipping. Fixed.

Winamp DSP plugin: http://www.stereotool.com/download/dsp_ ... 01-016.exe
Stand alone version: http://www.stereotool.com/download/ster ... 01-016.exe
VST version: http://www.stereotool.com/download/vst_ ... 01-016.dll
VST version (No SSE2): http://www.stereotool.com/download/vst_ ... 01-016.dll
Command line version: http://www.stereotool.com/download/ster ... 01-016.exe
Linux command line version: http://www.stereotool.com/download/ster ... ETA601-016 [not available]
Linux GUI version: http://www.stereotool.com/download/ster ... ETA601-016 [not available]


What remains for 6.01:
- Multiband: Adjust band 3 (and others?) 'soft limit' behavior at very low latencies. Maybe: Also check clipping (also for band 3, might be re-enabled!). DONE! 1 hour
- Multiband: Adjust extreme EQ settings before processing to avoid issues caused by steepness. 1 hour
- Multiband: Add 'Enable' button for steepness. 1 hour
- Performance: Multiband steepness: Moving UP can be done inside current loop, no separate loop needed. Maybe down too. Currently Multiband is FAR more expensive than before. - DONE, solved in a different way. 1 day
- Performance: Multiband: Remove sqrt(sqrt(cos())), pow(x, .75) etc. - too expensive, replace by lookup table. 2 hours
- Reduce downsampling frequency because currently very high frequencies (21-22 kHz @ 176.4 kHz input sampling rate) in the input can cause spikes even if Hard Limit is used. 1 hour
- And I need to check how much the performance is impacted by the latency improvements, in the case where no upsampling and downsampling is needed. This seems to be impacted way more than I expected (could also be Multiband steepness). ???
- MAYBE: Make Steepness smarter. That would much better preserve the audio, especially at very low latencies! How: Instead of setting all the levels at AT MOST the level of neighboring bands + a bit, combine adjacent bands, determine total output level, and then fix it such that this combined output level is approached more. (So one very low, one very high --> one a bit less low, one a bit less high instead of both low).
- Fix NOISE GATE behavior in VST plugin
- Fix 'red output bar' issue. DONE 1 day?
- Attempt to set GAUSS back to 0 - gives MUCH better processing of most filters (no high frequency noise). BUT: Loudness effect in Bjork - It's Oh So Quiet - can that be resolved in another way? 1 day?
- Fix Highpass filter for higher input frequencies.

Questions:
* Multiband: Question: Is Steepness behavior ok?
* Loudness: QUESTION: The changed Punch behavior, is that good or bad?

Check:
Check difference in behavior between 44.1 and 48 kHz input for multiband! This could potentially result in really big differences.
Author:  Chris [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.00
I still hear diff on Bass and kick between Beta 16 vs Beta 08 on 2048 latency. I hear more bass and kick on Beta 08. Pls check!
Author:  hvz [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.00
BETA601-017:
- Now automatically adjusting 'soft limit' levels for 512 Multiband to approach the behavior of higher latencies. At other latencies the difference is much smaller and no auto-adjust seems to be needed.

Note to Bojcha: You reported earlier that some tracks sounded better with Steepness set to 5%, others at 250%. I hope that with these changed 'soft limit' behavior that difference is gone now... At least for the (few) tracks I've tested so far 'Steepness' has far less effect now than it did before.

Winamp DSP plugin: http://www.stereotool.com/download/dsp_ ... 01-017.exe
Stand alone version: http://www.stereotool.com/download/ster ... 01-017.exe
VST version: http://www.stereotool.com/download/vst_ ... 01-017.dll
VST version (No SSE2): http://www.stereotool.com/download/vst_ ... 01-017.dll
Command line version: http://www.stereotool.com/download/ster ... 01-017.exe
Linux command line version: http://www.stereotool.com/download/ster ... ETA601-017 [not available]
Linux GUI version: http://www.stereotool.com/download/ster ... ETA601-017 [not available]


What remains for 6.01:
- Multiband: Adjust band 3 (and others?) 'soft limit' behavior at very low latencies. Maybe: Also check clipping (also for band 3, might be re-enabled!). DONE! 1 hour
- Multiband: Adjust extreme EQ settings before processing to avoid issues caused by steepness. 1 hour
- Multiband: Add 'Enable' button for steepness. 1 hour
- Performance: Multiband steepness: Moving UP can be done inside current loop, no separate loop needed. Maybe down too. Currently Multiband is FAR more expensive than before. - DONE, solved in a different way. 1 day
- Performance: Multiband: Remove sqrt(sqrt(cos())), pow(x, .75) etc. - too expensive, replace by lookup table. 2 hours
- Reduce downsampling frequency because currently very high frequencies (21-22 kHz @ 176.4 kHz input sampling rate) in the input can cause spikes even if Hard Limit is used. 1 hour
- And I need to check how much the performance is impacted by the latency improvements, in the case where no upsampling and downsampling is needed. This seems to be impacted way more than I expected (could also be Multiband steepness). ???
- MAYBE: Make Steepness smarter. That would much better preserve the audio, especially at very low latencies! How: Instead of setting all the levels at AT MOST the level of neighboring bands + a bit, combine adjacent bands, determine total output level, and then fix it such that this combined output level is approached more. (So one very low, one very high --> one a bit less low, one a bit less high instead of both low).
- Fix NOISE GATE behavior in VST plugin
- Fix 'red output bar' issue. DONE 1 day?
- Attempt to set GAUSS back to 0 - gives MUCH better processing of most filters (no high frequency noise). BUT: Loudness effect in Bjork - It's Oh So Quiet - can that be resolved in another way? 1 day?
- Fix Highpass filter for higher input frequencies.
- Chris: "I still hear diff on Bass and kick between Beta 16 vs Beta 08 on 2048 latency. I hear more bass and kick on Beta 08. Pls check!"

Questions:
* Multiband: Question: Is Steepness behavior ok?
* Loudness: QUESTION: The changed Punch behavior, is that good or bad?

Check:
Check difference in behavior between 44.1 and 48 kHz input for multiband! This could potentially result in really big differences.
Author:  hvz [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.00
Quote:
I still hear diff on Bass and kick between Beta 16 vs Beta 08 on 2048 latency. I hear more bass and kick on Beta 08. Pls check!
I've added this to my todo list. Could it be the difference in 'Steepness' behavior? (If so, if you set 'Steepness' to the maximum level, the difference should be gone - if that's indeed the case I might have to adjust the Steepness behavior at higher latencies a bit).

I expect to be able to make Steepness more lenient if I manage to get this 'Gauss' value to 0 (other TODO list item); I probably won't be checking this issue before doing that because I expect some improvements there.
Author:  phoenix [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.00
Han, in Loudness section - Limting strictness 'should' cause audible artifacts for higher values(as per the small disclaimer attached). Does that still hold true or is it exclusive to, like FM processing alone. Back during the time of betas(v40~50) of v6.00 I remember distinctly hearing audible clipping artifacts at portions of the soundtrack comprising of loud bass and/or highs. Since then I fixated that parameter at 2.5~5% and never cared to fiddle with it post that.
Now I am not certain if there are other than clipping artifacts that I should look for, because I don't hear any. Could it be possible that certain improvements you made in few betas shy of final v6.00 release in Loudness could have had some effect on Limiting Strictness? I mean I'm talking about huge values. If you could please confirm the same for I like the way it sounds at such extreme values with a slamming bass(punch) and sharp highs.
Author:  hvz [ Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.00
I guess I should explain somewhere what 'limiting strictness' does. But in short, it causes artifacts that sound like distortion (for example, for bass it could make the bass 'dirty'.). It does NOT affect any clicks or other weird sounds.

(Even shorter: Loudness causes some distortion. 'Limiting strictness' influences how much it can cause, for very loud input signals that are difficult for Loudness - say xylophones etc., but also loud bass with Punch.
Author:  Chris [ Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.00
Quote:
Quote:
I still hear diff on Bass and kick between Beta 16 vs Beta 08 on 2048 latency. I hear more bass and kick on Beta 08. Pls check!
I've added this to my todo list. Could it be the difference in 'Steepness' behavior? (If so, if you set 'Steepness' to the maximum level, the difference should be gone - if that's indeed the case I might have to adjust the Steepness behavior at higher latencies a bit).

I expect to be able to make Steepness more lenient if I manage to get this 'Gauss' value to 0 (other TODO list item); I probably won't be checking this issue before doing that because I expect some improvements there.
No its the opposite... if i set stepnes to 5~15% the bass and kicks are similar to beta 08... similar, not same..! :(
Author:  hvz [ Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.00
Quote:
No its the opposite... if i set stepnes to 5~15% the bass and kicks are similar to beta 08... similar, not same..! :(
Now that is REALLY strange, if I select those settings I just loose bass. Can you tell me what your preset looks like?
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