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Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA
https://forums.stereotool.com/viewtopic.php?t=5722		 Page 21 of 33
Author:  RobertSack [ Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA
Quote:
Quote:
Bob Orban said in an interview that they're actually not very steep and that lends to the full sound in the low end,
Pretty sure Bob Orban said the exact opposite in an interview he did a while back. I cant rememeber it word for word but he mentioned his multibands are all-pass (except for the 110x) and they all use quite steep crossover slopes.
Even their website states "The best results are obtained with steep crossover slopes allowing more consistency from various program sources. It can also give the "illusion" of an unprocessed "big" sound."

@RobertSack
6dB/octave sounds rather dubious to me, care to share how you came up with that value ? Is it something you read in any of the manuals ?
simple:
Put a sweep- tone at the Input of the 8200, AGC + couplings off. There you can see the crossovers (except for band 4-5) and see how much gain reduction occures in the Bands depending on the frequency.
I have 2 of These Units at home, so no Problem :-)
Author:  RobertSack [ Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA
Quote:
RobertSack -

I was unaware they hadn't converted to dB everywhere. In any case, the rationale makes sense for multiband, and I think I prefer it. But I like the "safer" approach ST employs where the coupled band never artificially gets more gain than the source band unless it actually needs it.

Thanks for the info.
It actually *is* so, that at a coupling value of 100% the target band can´t have less gain reduction than the source band, but even more, if the energy containing its frequency range is above ist threshold. No energy in the target band + coupling set to 100% = target band´s GR is the same as source band´s GR. So the Minimum gain reduction of the targt band is only limited to the source band dependent value. But not absolutely (in dB) rather relative in percent of the source band´s gain reduction.
It makes sense to do so, cause if e.g. Band 3 widely sticks out the coupling is quasi reduced that it doesn´t pull the bands coupled at it too much...
Author:  RobertSack [ Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA
Quote:
RobertSack

I don't see any benefit in making this feature any more complicated than it already is.
I agree with you that my suggestion is a bit more complicated but therefore most flexible - you can do what you want and how you want it without the 81 controls from the matrix rather the count of controls you really need.
Other parts of ST are far more complicated so that if you want to get the best results you have to spend more time to it and study the manual.

And the 2 modes are in deat interesting for the case described by hans, that you can make a small coupling from bass to highs to prevent these from distortion if loud bass does occur. There you need the "adding- mode", cause the coupling should make the gain reuction greater in the high band...
Therefore the "mode"- Switch.
But it´s not more than a Suggestion from me...:-)
Author:  hvz [ Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA
Not much special, but for now I've put the band coupling matrix back because I've heard a preset where someone did some really great things with it. I will re-read the last few posts in this thread to determine what to do with it eventually, but for now, it seems clear that having this matrix allows doing some things that wouldn't be possible without it.

(In short: Band coupling helps to avoid situations where 1 band sticks out and is much louder than the surrounding bands, which sounds bad. In the preset that I heard, band coupling was switched off in the matrix for bands 1 and 2. Normally, when there's a lot of sound in band 3, that would pull down bands 1 and 2 as well - with this protection switched off for the lowest 2 bands, that's no longer the case, leading to a warmer sound with - to my ears - more pleasant bass). Band 1 was linked to band 2 using the new Band Linking to avoid other problems. With some pre-processing using a phase rotation VST plugin, this results in the following sound (1st of the 3 recordings): http://www49.zippyshare.com/v/31178823/file.html

Windows 32 bit:
Windows stand alone: http://www.stereotool.com/download/ster ... 52-018.exe
Winamp DSP: http://www.stereotool.com/download/dsp_ ... 52-018.exe
VST: http://www.stereotool.com/download/vst_ ... 52-018.dll

CHANGES:
- Re-record 'This sound is processed by' thingy. It sounds annoying and I hear it on too many stations now... (even big ones with millions of listeners lol... they should really get a license!)
- Restore Band Coupling Matrix after discussion with Sjoerd Wijdogen.
- Stop saving .sts.pnr file if there's no PNR data. -> Reset button didn't work when PNR was disabled.
- Bug fix: On program close, the parameters were removed before the HTTP server was switched off. This might cause an exception if the HTTP server is processing a request.

TODO:
- Save PNR data in normal INI file
- Fix Phase Equalizer
- Insane bass effect: https://soundcloud.com/kilohearts/datas ... rser-demos
- Fix Phase Equalizer GUI behavior (same display at different latencies etc.). And only in one direction (up = delay, no down!). Try to fix highs.
- Try to optimize Phase Equalizer
- Read all the posts about band coupling and decide what to do with it
- Convert N-1->N etc. to actual band numbers.
- Add interface for media group I talked to at IBC for 50 FM and 50 web stations.
- Improve password protection. Prepare to later also support password protected presets (not now). Mail Henk M. Maybe disable for now.
- Crash in BETA014 stand alone http://i.imgur.com/Fpz7Jmr.png
- Add and update presets
- Change version number to 7.60 (since there's a new filter added).

LATER:
- Check Multiband settings Bojcha in Skype - ok, seen it, but what should I do with it?
- Check Multiband meters when using band coupling. Something is weird.
- Split limiters from coupling.
- Add External Pulse Response option

PREVIOUS:
- GUI: Made CPU affinity more user friendly (pulldown and masks as backup)
- GUI: Split filters in Restoration / Processing.
- GUI: Display FM lowpass frequency at bottom when FM output is used.
- GUI: Made Configuration, Repair and Processing settings saveable separately.
- GUI: Strange jumps in waveform displays at 100 and 200 ms buffer size fixed.
- GUI: Hide panels in password protected mode or something Temporarily done, now waiting for feedback. *
- GUI: Reorganized Advanced Clipper ABDP panel.
- Performance: Optimized band coupling in MB compressor; ignoring bands with coupling < 0.5%.
- Bug fix: GUI: Fix crash when clicking on volume bars.
- Bug fix: Potential GUI crash at certain display sizes fixed.
- Added PNR Noise & Hum filter that removes constant tones and reduces noise.
- ABDP: Added new "Sloppy" slider. Effect: Slightly louder, 0.5 dB more highs! And probably less pumping due to highs. (*)
- Multiband compressor: Added Band Coupling matrix which overrules the standard band coupling settings. Only available in Extreme Tweaker mode. MOVE TO EXPERT MODE?
- Multiband compressor: Added band linking (different from already existing band coupling).
- Advanced Clipper: Advanced Bass Distortion Protection (ABDP): Drop in output when strongly clipping around 2600-4000 Hz is reduced.
- Advanced Clipper: ABDP: "Smooth Slide" slider added to make transition between deep bass (clipped) and less deep bass smoother. There used to be a drop upto the 2nd configured bass frequency, with this switch enabled the drop is smoothed (maximum at 1st configured bass freq, gone at 2nd). Result: Warmer, more open, less 'restrained' sound. But probably also a bit more intermodulation distortion. (which might be fixable by changing the frequencies in the preset a bit). (*)
- Advanced Clipper: ABDP: Added extra step that detects intermodulation distortion from bass in voices and reduces it.
- Advanced Clipper: Highs Gap Protection caused a jump in the spectrum between 3.5-3.8 kHz for loud highs. This is now smoothed over a bigger area (2400-4800 Hz).
- Advanced Clipper: Highs Gap Protection: Now stricter than before. Slightly more IMD distortion in the highs but also better protection against volume drops caused by loud highs.
Author:  hvz [ Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA
Quote:
And I think it´s not a band coupling issue to prevent loud highs from distortion when loud bass waves do occur. This is the task of ABDP, and this section does this job very well.
Yes it is, but I've seen it done in other processors, and it might ease things for ABDP. But as I think I've written earlier, the behavior isn't that straightforward: If I want to reduce the highs if there is loud bass present, it should not respond to the attenuation of the bass bands, but to the amount of bass that gets through. So for this a completely different mechanism needs to be used. Also, the goal of the current coupling is different: In Band Coupling (the old thing, with the matrix) the goal is to avoid having a single band stick out too much, and Band Linking (the new thing) is there to avoid too much boost of the lowest or highest freqs vs. the rest of the sound. So that's a completely different goal, and I'm starting to think that - at least while looking at this - I should forget about this bass vs highs issue.

This might mean that I can simplify the matrix: If the only thing I'm doing is looking at what other bands in a specific direction are doing, the matrix could contain just 2 sliders for each band: Coupling to lower bands and coupling to higher bands, which would then override the global coupling slider.

Quote:
In Basics the band coupling does add the gain reduction signal of the source band to the gain reduction signal produced by the target band’s compressor sidechain. This sum determined the gain of the target band’s VCA.
The only downside of this is, when this action loweres the drive to the target band’s sidechain below the compression threshold for that band, it causes the sidechain’s gain reduction signal to decrease towards 0 dB at a speed determined by the target band’s release time setting.
To get rid of this, the behavior has to be changed so that the gain reduction in the target band immediately becomes the higher of the target band sidechain’s gain control signal or the source band’s gain reduction signal as multiplied by the relevant Band Coupling control. So the attack and release time constants of the target band’s compressor sidechain no longer affect the band coupling.

Do you know what i mean?
If it would work so, it would be perfect i think.

Uhm, unless I'm completely misunderstanding something, this is exactly what both Band Coupling and Band Linking do right now. (Except that the limiters are included in the coupling and linking behavior).
Author:  hvz [ Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA
Quote:
In fact, Hans could make it *more* simply, by having the UI dynamically replace references like N - 1 > N with 4 > 5. After all, the UI knows how many bands the user is employing.
Ah I forgot about that - I did plan to do it. Will add it to the todo list.
Author:  hvz [ Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA
Quote:
Quote:
Bob Orban said in an interview that they're actually not very steep and that lends to the full sound in the low end,
Pretty sure Bob Orban said the exact opposite in an interview he did a while back. I cant rememeber it word for word but he mentioned his multibands are all-pass (except for the 110x) and they all use quite steep crossover slopes.
Even their website states "The best results are obtained with steep crossover slopes allowing more consistency from various program sources. It can also give the "illusion" of an unprocessed "big" sound."

@RobertSack
6dB/octave sounds rather dubious to me, care to share how you came up with that value ? Is it something you read in any of the manuals ?
I can confirm that steeper slopes generally give a better sound. With very unsteep slopes, you can easily get an effect where you hear 'holes' in the spectrum because a loud sound will affect a large frequency area around it. It's often not immediately noticeable, but if you have a preset with very unsteep slopes and set the 'Aggressiveness' slider to 10% (0.10x) you'll easily notice it.
Author:  hvz [ Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA
Quote:
OK my suggestion with the norm Switch is not perfect, cause 1 band can be a source band for more than 1 bands and a target band can have more than 1 source band...
But perhaps this here is the solution:
When you make a table with 4 columns and several rows:
column1: source band (to fill in a numerical value)
column2: target band (to fill in a numerical value)
column3: algorithm (mode 1 or 2, what I described in my prior post about the norm switch)
column4: percentage slider

So you can determine the algorithm per coupling way instead of per band.
I've re-read your 2 posts (this one and the one just above it) about 4 times now and I still don't follow it. Can you please tell me what the *goal* of both methods is? So which effect are you trying to accomplish and why?
Author:  weskeene [ Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA
I don't think gentle slopes always equal holes in the sound. I don't happen to employ them in my preset, but that's because Bojcha's genius crossovers are so good, I dare not touch them. :)

In a way, gentle crossovers are just natural, built-in coupling. I would probably not try to employ extremely gentle crossovers and coupling at the same time. You'll end up dangerously close to a wideband processor with a sidechain filter greatly favoring the midrange. I can testify that recipe sounds terrible, at least for music.

Between the link I posted and the interview (or forum post), I swear Bob's made, his are quite gentle (though, of course he never gets exact). It can give you a very solid low end. Having said that, I don't use them in ST. Every processor produces its own sonic texture, and you can't carry one processor's behavior over to the other.

Despite the Orban inspired features I use in my preset, it's doing things no Optimod will do. I'm sure that's true of practically every preset in the list.
Author:  Bojcha [ Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA
I am reading this coupling mania... and i have something to ask.

As i see couplig goes b2>b1 and b3>b2.. etc, so not vice versa. Is it maybe better to have ideal crossover where at all points are almost ideal settings? Also it will give specific signatrure for processing unit/software.
At the same time i always like to have option+ to tune to tune some thing. but where... and here is second question.. coupling and crossover meets?

Thing is, for some "normal" crossover, coupling can easy be redudant. if it's too much steep, then you probably need it much more but there is other things that is questionable like that very same crossover. It's not designed right, and for sure, default values are not good.
Another thing i noticed is that every processor, even orban, have pretu much range in MB and to still be 'ok'.
So.. if i play sine tone at 400Hz wich will light up band 3 or/and 4, you will see there there is no attenutasion in band1 and 2. at 12dB range.
Now.. I tested my 7 band crossover and it happens exactly that. But lets try band 3 to 2, as soon as i am at 5% b2 lights up and i am at less then 12dB range between b3 and b2. What that mean? Do i already have good crossover there? Do i need coupling those 2 bands. I want bass to be up there when it's soft or almost gone i dont want it to make it from lazy AGC. So i need range.

I also need range when i play dull tracks. And belive me with FeedBack 100% in ST, you will not have much range to make that.
"Beyonce - Partition" is perfect ttrack for that. There is no single preset in ST (even mine) that will make that track sound right! I CAN make it right, but i need to use AGC with some hacked settings. And to ignore bad crossover there.
But where is coupling there? You don't need it at all.

Now when coupling is like this, only thing i can think of is to fully use FeedForward and proper Ratios. And when things starts to be untunable, then go to coupling. Like that, range should be enough and MB consistent in spectrum.
As i said still neeed to try that.

Many other.. actually all other things related to MB are also closely related to each other, and so to coupling.

well.. will think more. :)
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