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Stereo Tool 6.10
https://forums.stereotool.com/viewtopic.php?t=3065		 Page 167 of 213
Author:  Bojcha [ Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.10
Quote:
- Added checkbox to combine bands 1+2 of Multiband
:)
Nice, but i thought on 1+2 clippers not compressor/limiter. For this one you need slider. in 0-100%
Author:  baires0314 [ Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.10
Hans,

Hmm ok let me show you an example. What you mentioned I don't doubt was an issue but that's not what I was referring to. Let me show you. The snares are the easiest to notice this problem with in songs. It seems as though they become "harsh" and not nice and smooth anymore once Loudness is turned on (1.01+)

Here are some examples for you, processed with BETA111:

SONG 1
LOUDNESS 1.00: http://www18.zippyshare.com/v/65796496/file.html
LOUDNESS 1.01: http://www18.zippyshare.com/v/84407530/file.html

SONG 2
LOUDNESS 1.00: http://www18.zippyshare.com/v/48710947/file.html
LOUDNESS 1.01: http://www18.zippyshare.com/v/79867410/file.html

Here is a screenshot of my settings in Loudness window so you see what the settings are.

Image

Let me know what you think...
Author:  hvz [ Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.10
@baires0314: What's happening is that in the 1.00 case Loudness is switched off and you're using Hard Limit. This just lowers the volume when it gets too loud. It causes pumping-like effects, especially when loud highs are present, as you can clearly hear in song 2.

When set to 1.01, Loudness (clipper) kicks in. The highs are much louder and brighter, and don't push the other sounds down - but apparently you don't like that sound.

Try this:
1. Switch Hard Limit off
2. Now Loudness at 1.01 should sound BETTER (cleaner) than at 1.00.
3. Next, lower Post Amp to - say - 0.50.
4. Now it you move Loudness between 1.00 and 1.01, you should not hear too much difference. If on the other hand you turn Hard Limit on and off (while keeping Loudness at 1.00) you should hear that Hard Limit makes the sound much softer by lowering loud sounds.
Author:  baires0314 [ Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.10
Quote:
@baires0314: What's happening is that in the 1.00 case Loudness is switched off and you're using Hard Limit. This just lowers the volume when it gets too loud. It causes pumping-like effects, especially when loud highs are present, as you can clearly hear in song 2.

When set to 1.01, Loudness (clipper) kicks in. The highs are much louder and brighter, and don't push the other sounds down - but apparently you don't like that sound.

Try this:
1. Switch Hard Limit off
2. Now Loudness at 1.01 should sound BETTER (cleaner) than at 1.00.
3. Next, lower Post Amp to - say - 0.50.
4. Now it you move Loudness between 1.00 and 1.01, you should not hear too much difference. If on the other hand you turn Hard Limit on and off (while keeping Loudness at 1.00) you should hear that Hard Limit makes the sound much softer by lowering loud sounds.
Ahh yes I see...So hard limit is what makes those sounds smooth. So why when Hard Limit is used and Loudness is turned on, it acts as if hard limit is NOT on? Meaning the effect of hard limit to the sounds (smoothed out) when Loudness is off no longer happens. The change is much greater.

EDIT: I understand that it's a "reaction" to the mount of highs to mids to lows that makes the filter act that way. But it causes inconsistencies in the sound. Let me explain:

If you have a simple track that plays KICK then SNARE then KICK then SNARE + DING then KICK then SNARE, that second snare will be stronger and sound harsher and different to the other 2 snares because it's reacting to the simultaneous DING, true?

That is a problem in my mind. Consistency at loud volumes is what Orban's motto is. I know the idea is to create a software program that can do what those expensive hardware boxes can. Well then the theory of the loudness filter in ST is not correct IMO.

Right now, I turned Loudness back to 1.00 and Final Limiter to 1.50 (even though I get red bars, final limiter + hard limit does not ruin the consistency that hard limit produces alone). I know final limiter shouldn't be used for this purpose but the loudness filter ruins what hard limit does to the sound.
Author:  Bojcha [ Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.10
Hans, Make Hard Limit avaliable only when loudness is used.

btw.. i love this 1+2 band coupling. Just if possible slider for amount of coupling.... ehh.. again, sun is up
Author:  hvz [ Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.10
baires: Actually I compared Loudness to the clipper in the Omnia 9, a $10,000 hardware box, and the two are virtually indistinguishable. The purpose of Loudness is NOT to compress the sound - that seems to be what you want! - but to keep the sound within limits with as little impact on the audio as possible.

If you want compression, use Multiband (granted, not the best possible - redesign is planned), or even the AGC-style singleband (top of the Loudness window). If you want to lower the highs, which is what Hard Limit without Loudness does, use the de-esser (Loudness panel).

Hard Limit is there to lower the volume if sounds get too loud; the less it has to do the better it is. So if Loudness is turned on, Hard Limit does almost nothing (just fixes the last 2-3 %). Which is exactly what it should do.

BTW: Kick + ping: Both will normally be SOFTER in that case than when they would have been played separately. Not louder. Things might sound harsher though - basically you get a harsher sound if you drive Loudness too hard.
Author:  hvz [ Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.10
Quote:
Hans, Make Hard Limit avaliable only when loudness is used.

btw.. i love this 1+2 band coupling. Just if possible slider for amount of coupling.... ehh.. again, sun is up
1 - not a good idea, Hard Limit is also useful to remove the last few spikes in low CPU usage presets, and it can be used after Final Limiter as well. But what baires0314 does is completely different from what it is indended to do - and it does indeed to a pretty poor job if you listen to song2 1.00.

2 - will check.

3 - ehm, not yet I think, but almost - going to bed now :-)
Author:  hvz [ Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.10
@baires0314: Your bass clipping levels are set to 100%! That means that if there's a loud bass, there's basically NO room left for the highs! So that might be what causes things to sound harsh. Set the levels lower, for example Always clip below to around 90-95%, 'Do not reduce bass below' to 60-90%. (Lower = better highs, but less bass).
Author:  baires0314 [ Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.10
Quote:
baires: Actually I compared Loudness to the clipper in the Omnia 9, a $10,000 hardware box, and the two are virtually indistinguishable. The purpose of Loudness is NOT to compress the sound - that seems to be what you want! - but to keep the sound within limits with as little impact on the audio as possible.

If you want compression, use Multiband (granted, not the best possible - redesign is planned), or even the AGC-style singleband (top of the Loudness window). If you want to lower the highs, which is what Hard Limit without Loudness does, use the de-esser (Loudness panel).

Hard Limit is there to lower the volume if sounds get too loud; the less it has to do the better it is. So if Loudness is turned on, Hard Limit does almost nothing (just fixes the last 2-3 %). Which is exactly what it should do.

BTW: Kick + ping: Both will normally be SOFTER in that case than when they would have been played separately. Not louder. Things might sound harsher though - basically you get a harsher sound if you drive Loudness too hard.
Ok I understand. Thanks for explaining. I can't wait for the MB redesign. Make it as powerful as can be :) or at least give it the potential to be as powerful as the Orban/Omnia ones.

Thanks again.
Author:  phoenix [ Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stereo Tool 6.10
Quote:
@phoenix: No, not yet solved. I thought I had placed of jn my treo list but I don't see it there...
Your Android smartphone again? The best I could interpret is that you had it in your To-Do List.
Quote:
..Actually I compared Loudness to the clipper in the Omnia 9, a $10,000 hardware box, and the two are virtually indistinguishable.
Strongly agree, been comparing the mpx files encoded by VST to that of the Omnia 9 posted in PFD site.

On a side note - since you indicated of an upcoming MB redesign, may I also suggest to incorporate standard values in millisecs for Attack and Release times instead of unit less scale for Attack and release speeds.
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