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Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA https://forums.stereotool.com/viewtopic.php?t=5722 |
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Author: | hvz [ Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA |
Quote: OK, I'll do my best to explain.
This is doing interesting things! I've just implemented it for band 2->1 and it doesn't have much impact on (most) music, but on voices it stops the excessive bass that you sometimes get with voice. Cool ![]() I'll explain from my background. Orban offers Band 2 > Band 1 coupling. Band 3 > Band 4 coupling, and Band 4 > 5 coupling settings. This is what I'm used to so it's what I expect. Here's how it works. When a band is coupled TO (1, 4, or 5), that band can never have less gain reduction than the band it is coupled FROM. But it *is* allowed to have MORE gain reduction. The idea in the case of Band 4 > Band 5 is to basically turn bands 4 and 5 into a unified band with the additional feature of a sibilance reduction feature in band 5. It is rare to have a song which would have much more energy in bands 1 and 5 than 2 and 4, respectively. But if that happens, we want 1 and 5 to do as much extra GR as necessary. The inverse is NOT true. Because bands 1 and 5 represent the extreme ends of the spectrum, we don't really want them to get any more dense than they already are. In particular, a very dense band 5 is bad on FM, and a dense band 1 gives a nasty rumble and puts a lot of extra energy into the final clipper. Now, that doesn't mean you have to do it exactly the same way. If there is a better approach, that's fine. You asked what I expected, so I'm telling you. ![]() I should note than in the Optimod 8200, what I described isn't exactly true (but it is in all subsequent Optimods). In the 8200, the gains of bands 4 and 5 were precisely identical with the exception of limiting. The other bands' coupling worked as I described above. In no case, is there ever interaction between coupling and limiters for their respective bands (that I am aware of). ![]() And it reduces artifacts. (Those from lower Quality slider settings; as long as band 1 and 2 are at the same level MB introduces no artifacts). |
Author: | weskeene [ Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:51 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA |
That's the outcome I would expect. Depending on where your crossovers are, the effect can be more or less evident on music. I'm going to guess that your band 1 crossover is below 100Hz. There is very little content down there that you'd ever want to amplify. Most punch happens right around 100 and going up a bit from there, which is likely handled more by band 2. Band 1 needs to be controlled to keep rumbling and distortion down, but there is almost no case where you'd want to raise it up*. *The exception would be very old music which really lacks in low frequency information. In that case, coupling to just 50% (or even no coupling at all) may make older music conform more closely to current production standards. You'll find the exact same thing happens with Band 4 > Band 5 coupling. Especially on FM, you really don't want to jack up the density above 6k very much, and actually thinning it out makes a more pleasing sound once preemphasis is factored in. It might initially be more audible with Band 4 > Band 5, but it's rarely a negative effect. As a nice side effect, any amount of sibilance pumping can be greatly mitigated this way, as well. Although StereoTool doesn't appear to really suffer from this problem in the first place. Quote: This is doing interesting things! I've just implemented it for band 2->1 and it doesn't have much impact on (most) music, but on voices it stops the excessive bass that you sometimes get with voice. Cool
![]() And it reduces artifacts. (Those from lower Quality slider settings; as long as band 1 and 2 are at the same level MB introduces no artifacts). |
Author: | mpex2006km [ Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:56 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA |
Quote: OK, I'll do my best to explain.
BTW I think this method of band coupling is implemented in the omnia 11
![]() I'll explain from my background. Orban offers Band 2 > Band 1 coupling. Band 3 > Band 4 coupling, and Band 4 > 5 coupling settings. This is what I'm used to so it's what I expect. Here's how it works. When a band is coupled TO (1, 4, or 5), that band can never have less gain reduction than the band it is coupled FROM. But it *is* allowed to have MORE gain reduction. The idea in the case of Band 4 > Band 5 is to basically turn bands 4 and 5 into a unified band with the additional feature of a sibilance reduction feature in band 5. It is rare to have a song which would have much more energy in bands 1 and 5 than 2 and 4, respectively. But if that happens, we want 1 and 5 to do as much extra GR as necessary. The inverse is NOT true. Because bands 1 and 5 represent the extreme ends of the spectrum, we don't really want them to get any more dense than they already are. In particular, a very dense band 5 is bad on FM, and a dense band 1 gives a nasty rumble and puts a lot of extra energy into the final clipper. Now, that doesn't mean you have to do it exactly the same way. If there is a better approach, that's fine. You asked what I expected, so I'm telling you. ![]() I should note than in the Optimod 8200, what I described isn't exactly true (but it is in all subsequent Optimods). In the 8200, the gains of bands 4 and 5 were precisely identical with the exception of limiting. The other bands' coupling worked as I described above. In no case, is there ever interaction between coupling and limiters for their respective bands (that I am aware of). |
Author: | weskeene [ Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:52 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA |
Quote: BTW I think this method of band coupling is implemented in the omnia 11
Very interesting. Neither of the Omnia's I had (ONE FM and 6EXi) had that functionality. Omnia is kind of a different architecture, though. It didn't seem as important with that product as (in my humble opinion), it didn't lean on compression as much as multiband limiting to achieve its loudness. I rarely allowed any band to get more than 10dB of gain reduction. But heck, maybe it would have sounded even better with coupling. Who knows.
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Author: | hvz [ Sun Dec 14, 2014 1:00 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA |
I'm building a version now which has 2->1 and N-1->N linking implemented. There are still a few choices that can be made... For example, if linking is 50%, does that mean that when without linking band 1 is 6 dB less attenuated than band 2, it should be 3 dB less (that's what I've implemented now), or should it stay at 6 but never go higher? For highs, I'm thinking that the other solution might be better, as right now when testing I just don't see the highest band move away from the 2nd highest - ever. (Could also mean that the preset is bad!). For now, it only works when the old band coupling slider is set at at least 1% - I will fix that later. (That part is the most difficult part, to make it work without increasing the CPU load). |
Author: | weskeene [ Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:11 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA |
What you described as the current functionality is correct. Note that when you base coupling on percentages, it takes on an elastic property. So when you run less gain, there is more coupling for a given percentage, and with more gain comes less coupling. So if you use 50% 2 > 1 coupling, then if band 2 has 12dB of GR, then band 1 must have at least 6dB of GR. In your example, the bands could differ by just 3 dB because of the smaller amounts of gain reduction involved. I thought it was odd when I ran those boxes, but in the real world, it never sounded weird. If anything, maybe it's better this way. I don't fully understand the second part of your question. "without linking" I assume means coupling is set to 0%. In this case, band 1's GR has no relationship at all to band 2's. Also, N-1 > N linking is a great way of thinking about it, too. I was wondering how you'd deal with the higher band linking. So I suppose you've got two different types of new coupling now: Band 2 > Band 1, and N-1 > N coupling. Makes sense to me, if so, as the only time we (historically) have linked downward is between bands 2 and 1. Every other linking is headed upwards. If you have Band 4 > Band 5 set at 100% and band 5 always has identical gain to band 4, that's pretty normal. The only case where you wouldn't see that is if band 5 suddenly has enough energy to cause more gain than band 4. Your preset may not have a low enough threshold in band 5 to cause this to happen with any regularity. As a test, I would suggest drastically lowering the band 5 threshold, to verify that band 5 *can* take more gain than band 5, if necessary. Please note that once you have this working satisfactorily, it can be tremendously beneficial to implement this in the AGC section as well. Orban has traditionally done this in their AGC. In the 8200 there was 100% coupling between the two bands. The threshold of band 1 appeared to be pretty high, as well. So it allowed a lot of breathing room in band 1, yet still protected the multiband from excessive surges in band 1. Just a thought. Quote: I'm building a version now which has 2->1 and N-1->N linking implemented. There are still a few choices that can be made... For example, if linking is 50%, does that mean that when without linking band 1 is 6 dB less attenuated than band 2, it should be 3 dB less (that's what I've implemented now), or should it stay at 6 but never go higher? For highs, I'm thinking that the other solution might be better, as right now when testing I just don't see the highest band move away from the 2nd highest - ever. (Could also mean that the preset is bad!).
For now, it only works when the old band coupling slider is set at at least 1% - I will fix that later. (That part is the most difficult part, to make it work without increasing the CPU load). |
Author: | hvz [ Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:34 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA |
Windows 32 bit: Windows stand alone: http://www.stereotool.com/download/ster ... 52-016.exe Winamp DSP: http://www.stereotool.com/download/dsp_ ... 52-016.exe VST: http://www.stereotool.com/download/vst_ ... 52-016.dll Note: I'm still waiting for feedback about the usefulness of the 'Method' slider for the voice vibration issue. It's not here anymore, please use version 014 for that. CHANGES: - Band linking 2->1 and N-1->N. Added to Multiband main window. Currently only works if "Band Coupling" slider is set to at least 1%, I will fix that later. But it can be tested now! QUESTION: Band linking behavior currently behaves different from what you might expect. With 50% linking, bands can still get more than 50% apart. I can change that but I'm not sure which behavior is better, the current (if the difference is really big it can still be really big in the output) or the 50% = max 6 dB (huge differences will get much smaller). TODO: - Optimize band coupling in MB compressor; ignore bands with coupling < 0.5%. - Check Band Coupling in MB compressor. --> REMOVE and replace by what Wes Keene said. - Improve password protection. Prepare to later also support password protected presets (not now). Mail Henk M. - Crash in BETA014 stand alone http://i.imgur.com/Fpz7Jmr.png - Re-record 'This sound is processed by' thingy. It sounds annoying and I hear it on too many stations now... (even big ones with millions of listeners lol... they should really get a license!) - Add interface for media group I talked to at IBC for 50 FM and 50 web stations. LATER: - Check Multiband settings Bojcha in Skype - ok, seen it, but what should I do with it? - Check Multiband meters when using band coupling. Something is weird. - Split limiters from coupling. - Insane bass effect: https://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=https% ... =RAQHC9vQO PREVIOUS: - Fix GUI crash at certain display sizes - Test Declipper after PNR - Test voice vibration methods 0/1/2 - I don't hear it, waiting for feedback... --> Just go for "0". - Clear log in box when logged in. - Made CPU affinity more user friendly (pulldown and masks as backup) - Check if CPU load didn't increase for 3 Highs Gap Protection steps in FM HQ mode instead of 2. Both for with and without composite clipper. About 1% increase, including voice vibration protection. That's ok. But in Composite mode the difference is much bigger! Check; if needed go back to 2 steps. Or, if I'm using vibration protection in all steps, turn it off in the 1st 3 steps. --> Went back to 2.3 steps (last step is done 1/3rd), CPU load is now roughly the same as before. Highs gap protection seems to be nearly unaffected. - Check pilot generation code (57 kHz harmonic) -> Pilot is ok (generated output does NOT contain this tone), this is only a GUI (frequency analysis for displaying) issue. Ignore. - GUI: Weird jumps at 100 ms buffer size reported by DJ_DOGGY -> Must have occurred at both 100 and 200 ms. Should be fixed now, there were 2 different values used to switch between quick updates with fading and scrolling without fading. Now both use the same value. - Hide panels in password protected mode or something Temporarily done, now waiting for feedback. * - Voice vibrations: Choose one of 3 methods (010, 011, 011A). Added Method slider. See viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5734&start=47 Waiting for feedback to finish this. ** - ABDP: Mid tone intermodulation distortion: Make new filter at start of ABDP to control mids clipping level. Clip lows and mids separately, then together, measure volume loss for each and then use that as new clipping levels. Only in case where there are loud tones present (voices) with loud bass. Bojcha: Phase Tornado fixes it. Problem seems te be caused by combination of: 1. Loud bass below 100 Hz (maybe even lower); 2. Loud mids consisting of a constant tone with no or very little other sounds. But apparently only if this constant tone has a lot of harmonics - a sine wave comes out nearly ok. Ok. Fix almost there now. Todo: Improve detection (bigger frequency range? Add highs!!!). Todo: Measure at 75% clipping as well. TODO: Harmonics turnoff should not affect bass! - Sloppy causes crackling sound in piano's. Should probably be switched off is there are very little highs. - Highs Gap Protection: Turn 3rd step off for non-FM mode. - Highs Gap Protection: Forgot to make changes in Composite Clipper mode. - Fix declipper + PNR. Does it cause problems if it's used as intended? MUST BE TESTED TO MAKE SURE IT DOESN'T DAMAGE THE SOUND - Fix crash when clicking on volume bars. - Highs Gap Protection: 2nd step does almost nothing - why? - Correct, but seems ok this way... - Highs Gap Protection: power_X must not be used (sounds better without), but it must be used for something else because if power_X is 0, the current filter is insufficient. --> Now not using power_X anymore, but 3 steps instead of 2 in HQ gap mode. This seems to be very close to the optimal result. Need feedback on this.... it appears to be ok but I'm not 100% sure that the problem is completely gone. And I still need to test if it doesn't increase highs intermodulation distortion (probably not though). - Don't use Sloppy value when ABDP is disabled. - Highs Gap Protection caused a jump in the spectrum between 3.5-3.8 kHz for loud highs. This is now smoothed over a bigger area (2400-4800 Hz). - Bad gap in ABDP - causes highs to sound less full. Fix ASAP! Only in Composite mode! Was introduced in one of the previous beta's - Make Configuration, Repair and Processing settings saveable separately. - Split filters in Restoration / Processing. - At Band Coupling '0' the values in the GUI weren't recalculated properly. - Default value for Sloppy was 0% (-99 dB), should be 100%. - ABDP: Added new "Sloppy" slider. Effect: Slightly louder, 0.5 dB more highs! And probably less pumping due to highs. (*) - Band coupling settings don't work if Band Coupling slider in main Multiband window is set to 0%. - Declipper result is very bad if PNR is used before it. NOT SURE YET IF IT'S REALLY FIXED. - PNR can also be done AFTER declipping. - Display FM lowpass frequency at bottom when FM output is used. - Show warning when PNR is disabled due to changed settings. - Added Multiband compressor Band Coupling matrix. You can use this to overrule the standard band coupling settings. Only available in Extreme Tweaker mode, awaiting responses to see how useful it it (if it is useful I'll move it to Expert mode). - Advanced Clipper: Advanced Bass Distortion Protection (ABDP): Drop in output when strongly clipping around 2600-4000 Hz is reduced. - Advanced Clipper: ABDP: "Smooth Slide" slider added to make transition between deep bass (clipped) and less deep bass smoother. There used to be a drop upto the 2nd configured bass frequency, with this switch enabled the drop is smoothed (maximum at 1st configured bass freq, gone at 2nd). Result: Warmer, more open, less 'restrained' sound. But probably also a bit more intermodulation distortion. (which might be fixable by changing the frequencies a bit). (*) - Added PNR Noise & Hum - PNR analysis data is saved now - Clip highs stricter when highs cause volume drops. -> Doesn't seem necessary - ABDP: Calvin Harris ft. John Newman - Blame has distortion in lower highs; Highs distortion protection doesn't seem to handle it properly. Except for that I'm now getting a good sound for almost all tracks with bass clipping set to 100% (!) and Highs Priority to 20%, Sloppy at maximum. Cause: Highs in this track are at around 4 kHz and I'm not filtering highs for harmonics there. Very unusual track, ignore for now. * I got a complaint from someone who wants to resell Stereo Tool, but is afraid that customers will touch the settings and then keep coming back to him. His request was to only give them access to the AGC, Multiband and some FM settings. To do this, I have added a PASSWORD protection mode (only configurable in Extreme Tweaker mode right now, it's in the Configuration panel). You can set a password there and enable it. Once that's done, almost all the settings are hidden, until someone enters the password and presses the 'Log in' button. This solution doesn't completely make sense yet though, because it's currently still possible for people to load and save presets etc. I don't know if I should disable that (saving presets seems quite useful, even if you only have access to MB and AGC). Also, I think people should have access to at least some sound card settings (if they want to connect it to a new transmitter for example), although I could imagine that you want to have an expert present at that moment. Also, I wonder if it would be useful to have 2 modes: One with AGC and MB and some more things, and one where you cannot do anything at all until you've logged in. Note: Password protection is VERY dumb, you can easily turn it off in the .ini file or even look up the password in it. The goal is to keep 'idiots' out of the system, not to keep everyone out. Let me know what you think... |
Author: | weskeene [ Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:40 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA |
Are those links good? I can't download from them. |
Author: | weskeene [ Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:43 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA |
Disregard. Problem on my end, the links work. |
Author: | weskeene [ Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:54 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Stereo Tool 7.52 BETA |
This is really well done. I think the coupling behavior is nailed. One question, though: Is N-1 > N for all bands? Because normally that isn't the case. Given a 5 band processor, you might be set up as follows: Band 2 > 1 Band 3 > 4 (probably not a high percentage) Band 4 > 5 (pretty high) But we don't want to couple Band 2 > Band 3, for instance. And for 7 bands, you definitely don't want every band higher than 1 to couple to its next higher neighbor. What does N-1 > N affect? Just the top two bands? |
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