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 Post subject: Re: Dante
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:43 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:56 pm
Posts: 4151
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There probably is many ways how to "skin the cat," but to make it simple, you need to bridge Analog "world" on PC1 to Dante world, where PC2 with ST is listening. But I would do this only in case, when PC1 (better spoken - radio player - or source on PC1) is not directly Dante enabled. You could still do this, by using a digital (virtual) mixer like "Voicemeeter Potato" which can be homed on Dante sound card on PC1, yet still can take-in inputs from PC (analog environment) via "Voicemeeter virtual Asio inserts" etc. (Sounds scary, but works as a charm). Pay attention to gain-staging here, since you are mixing two different audio domains. Real digital (or Dante) zero will be minus (approximately -18dB analog). It takes some calibration and measurements.

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The best would be to connect a radio software (or any Asio capable programmed player - I use Boss) to Dante sound card on PC1. Then open Dante Controller and patch outputs from PC1 to input on PC2 with ST. All done!

I normally connect player to ST this way (from one PC to another) then I would take output from ST and send it to mixing console. (Also Dante). Plus one more trip (from within the console) to the third PC with DAW with some mastering help like (Iron SPL mastering compressor plugin etc. Especially in case you want to "glue" MICs and music together better than console with deep processing can do). Third PC though is used (as an insert) by console audio chain for primary strip, or mixing bus/matrix needs). That is the magic of Dante. You can make several trips (in and out) to many computers in the studio, where each machine can do something useful. Try that and you will never look back. (Not just for broadcasting, but for mixing and mastering needs).

I did not figure out how to upload some screen shots here. You are welcome to send some kind of direct message with your mail address and I can send a few illustrations.
ok.. thing is i tried with Audio Repeater so Reapiting my analog input to Dante soundcard. And no metter what i do, not working. Buffers locks and nothing works.

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 Post subject: Re: Dante
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:44 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:56 pm
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For obvious reasons you can't send analogue audio from one PC to another using anything other than an analogue audio wire - but I think this was just a slip of words.

In your scenario I would probably not use Dante, because it needs a grandmaster clock, which ideally should be a hardware Dante device. You *could* use Dante Via, which can act as a grandmaster clock, but that would cost you a total of ~100 EUR in licenses, and unless you enroll more devices you won't make use of the flexibility.

If you use Windows, give VBAN Audio a go:
https://vb-audio.com/Voicemeeter/vban.htm

You use the Voicemeeter virtual audio mixer als a source, and the VBAN receptor or another Voicemeeter mixer as a sink.

And final question: does it need to be windows? Jack on linux is such a great solution for low latency network wide audio, with all the benefits of a stable ecosystem. I still wonder why the whole broadcast businesses all stick with Windows for mission critical systems, and fiddle with settings to avoid automatic upgrades, restarts, feature changes and all that silliness of Windows.
Ok i tried once VBAN.. and something i dint like, cant remember what, but will try it again soon.
And yes, need to be windows, and no i dont have problems with any windows :)

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 Post subject: Re: Dante
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:07 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:23 pm
Posts: 6
Quote:
Quote:
For obvious reasons you can't send analogue audio from one PC to another using anything other than an analogue audio wire - but I think this was just a slip of words.

In your scenario I would probably not use Dante, because it needs a grandmaster clock, which ideally should be a hardware Dante device. You *could* use Dante Via, which can act as a grandmaster clock, but that would cost you a total of ~100 EUR in licenses, and unless you enroll more devices you won't make use of the flexibility.

If you use Windows, give VBAN Audio a go:
https://vb-audio.com/Voicemeeter/vban.htm

You use the Voicemeeter virtual audio mixer als a source, and the VBAN receptor or another Voicemeeter mixer as a sink.

And final question: does it need to be windows? Jack on linux is such a great solution for low latency network wide audio, with all the benefits of a stable ecosystem. I still wonder why the whole broadcast businesses all stick with Windows for mission critical systems, and fiddle with settings to avoid automatic upgrades, restarts, feature changes and all that silliness of Windows.
Ok i tried once VBAN.. and something i dint like, cant remember what, but will try it again soon.
And yes, need to be windows, and no i dont have problems with any windows :)

Covering latest posts...
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Grand-master clock (in normal environment) is present on the network already, actually not just one possible clock source but many. (Depending on scenario of course). For example when you decide to use some analog (analogue) equipment (and we often do). Thus, you end up using a few Avio devices no matter what. Real grand-master clock (box) is kind of price prohibitive, but in a form of Avio, it is very affordable. Then you should be able to send analog "source" from PC1 to PC2 via Dante (96K/24 bit).

I use two instances of ST. One is listening strictly on Dante network, it picks up audio from a DJ player like Denon or Pioneer (all over the network). Second ST picks up audio from a radio software (a player) where signal is forwarded to Voicemeeter (analog input segment) via "Voicemeeter virtual Asio inserts." Voicemeeter is then homed on Dante VSC (under A1). That moment you have any analog signal from PC1 available in your Dante network, so patch it where you want.

The reason for using Voicemeeter in some situations is the fact, that you don't want to block Dante/Asio interfacing with just one application (like a radio player). This way you can take in several inputs from PC1 analog (audio territory) plus a local or remote VBAN. (Not speaking of being able to serve a stereo "mix-minus" to at least three guests at the same time).

Dante Via's problem is not the cost of the license (in my opinion) but 48K limitation. Linux is great for running Centova Cast, or MediaCP (while configuring distribution points, such as Internet radio) but not for audio over (any affordable) IP transport. I did not find Linux drivers for virtual sound-card of any kind, not just for Dante.

Another problem is number of PCs in the studio before it gets too noisy. That seems to be another factor why not to use analogue audio wire. How long that analogue audio wire can be? And how much does it cost? One VSC license is about $30 and gives 32 channels to toy with. Single channel (balanced) audio wire 25 meters long with decent XLR/TRS connectors will be at least $50. But W10 boxes can be in a server room, while I can access all of them remotely using existing Ethernet. (And I do).

I understand that all this is not simple to deploy, because of IT part involved. Getting proper router, switches and another switches to power Avio devices over the Ethernet, configuring VLANs, all took me a while. But now it plays, and all I have been using before became a history.

--------------------------------------

VBAN:

I did use VBAN for connecting a remote MIC (real time 96K/24) during a live broadcast, while sending back monitoring, a proper stereo mix-minus. It was for (4 MICs show) for a period - approximately 3 years. Never experienced a problem. (Don't use encryption though, that will slow it down). It is just UDP streaming, no error correction at all. (Standard Internet line, nothing special). Remote MIC was 1400 Km away. All shows in the archive as today. You will not be able to recognize which MIC is (that) remote MIC. Recently I switched to RTP system (a hardware box) just to get rid of one Windows machine.

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Dante not working:

You have PC1 with analog audio (card) installed, plus with Dante VSC installed, THEN you have PC2 with Dante VSC and ST. You have "clock source" on the network enabled, you have Dante controller installed at least on one of the two computers, and you can't connect (patch) PC1 to PC2. ALL is using the same sub-net. All devices are configured the same sample rate and encoding.

Is that correct?

What do you see when you start Dante controller? Your PCs should be listed there, as well as your clock source, so you should be able to see at least these three devices. Sounds like something must have been misunderstood somewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: Dante
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:51 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:19 am
Posts: 193
Don't get me wrong, Dante is simply great. Period.
Dante would be even better if there was a Linux virtual sound card (which I believe would be available through the SDK).

And you really should check out jack with netjack. It doesn't follow the Windows pattern of "sound cards" so might be confusing at first.

For Bojcha's scenario, which of the devices is his clock source? AFAIK, the VSCs can't be clock source, it would need a Dante Via to make a PC a clock source.


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 Post subject: Re: Dante
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:58 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:56 pm
Posts: 4151
Thanks both of you for help.
Got more time today and i finaly realized how everything about Dante works. So i am missing important part. Master clock. And for simple task i need it's kinda too much robust.

So i deeply tried and tested VBAN, and passed all my torture tests. Actually it will solve another problem i have, so literally perfect for particular system i need to set.
Only better thing i can imagine is that ST supports 'VBAN Receptor' on input. :)

Thing is this is probably simplest and reliable A-to-B AoIP thing i tested. Not to mention it's free.

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 Post subject: Re: Dante
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:59 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:19 am
Posts: 193
Hint to Hans: VBAN protocol is open source ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Dante
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:02 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:56 pm
Posts: 4151
Quote:
Hint to Hans: VBAN protocol is open source ;)
I already posted it in wish list. we'll see.. idk.

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 Post subject: Re: Dante
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:41 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:23 pm
Posts: 6
Quote:
Thanks both of you for help.
Got more time today and i finaly realized how everything about Dante works. So i am missing important part. Master clock. And for simple task i need it's kinda too much robust.

So i deeply tried and tested VBAN, and passed all my torture tests. Actually it will solve another problem i have, so literally perfect for particular system i need to set.
Only better thing i can imagine is that ST supports 'VBAN Receptor' on input. :)

Thing is this is probably simplest and reliable A-to-B AoIP thing i tested. Not to mention it's free.
You are welcome!

One more thing about VBAN, in case it is to be used not only locally, but over the Internet as well. While creating a corresponding forwarding rule for UDP packets within main (perimeter) router, don't forget to limit incoming stream to one (or more) source IPs you are planning to work with. Without this filter, you will have approximately 80-90K source IPs from all over the world trying to access it, which will lead to a total frustration. (It will not work). Some consumer routers might have problem with this.

1.) There could be no option to create a source limiting rule

2.) Even if there is such an option, this operation (I call it a defense ministry) will be forced to use up to 100% of the resources your router might have. It is recommended to use a powerful router (not exactly a consumer router). Try to use something like "Edge Router 6P" or equivalent, and you should be fine.


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