Stereo Tool

So that is your fundamental misunderstanding.
I have tried to ignore what you write, because I do not want to waste my energy to answer in detail (the translation to the English language).
But now I have to answer, because you have written so much nonsense. LOL.
That is ridicolous.
You try to explain things to me, but you don`t understand how Stereo Tool works internally.
Of course the Stereo Tool output should be 0 dB at maximum.
But internally this barrier does not exist.
So, it is simply not true that my multiband output has that dynamic range.
My multiband output has peak values much higher than 0 dB !
And these values are reduced by my singleband multiplicator (x 0.45).
So, when you state, that my multiband puts out that dynamic range then you lie or really don`t know what you are talking about.
Besides:
If I disable some of your preset settings I can also make your processing sound even worse than your orginal (untouched) preset.

Most important:
As far as I remember I onced asked you and you answered that most of the time you prefer to use headphones.
Using medium volume settings (to avoid ear damage) via headphones is not same than to use big speakers and hear music really loud (and that is the reference for any professional mixing and mastering).
Hearing is not an exact linear process.
You have to find a compromise - the sweet spot for balancing low, mid and high frequencies for different listening volumes.
Generally for medium or low listening volume the human hearing system needs more highs (and that is your "problem" when you use my BASE preset with your headphones at medium volume).
That`s why some amplifier have a built-in so called "loudness" option (to boost bass and especially high frequencies on low volume settings).
Or if you have a graphic equalizer with many bands you can use as an alternative the well-known smiley-EQ (you know it) like maximizer does.
Your hypersonic generic preset creates a similiar (light version) sound characteristic like this.
It is ok for low or medium listening volume, but not suitable for high volume, because it "enhances" too much of the high frequencies.
Using the Multiband every preset applies a kind of remix.
And IMO you mix hihats, cymbals much too lood.
The problem is that you affect other instruments and voices too.
That`s why I do what I do in Multiband (to restrict hihats, cymbals without too much side effects for other elements).
You think that I use a wrong approach.
But I think it is the best compromise.
My settings might be very strange.
You have the freedom to not use my presets (or build modifications).
I don`t care about that.
What do you hear when you connect your headphones directly to your CD player (without any EQ) and listen to different CDs ?
You hear muffled snares, hi-hats, and ride cymbals.
But the muffled sound is based on your ears (the way your are conditioned to listen to music).
Or do you think that all audio engineers on this planet do it wrong ?
My spectral balance with BASE RMS 7 V2 is very close to many CD masters (and that is the reference point).
You can play many modern tracks that sound almost like the original unprocessed versions (if necessary with an applied loudness compensation).
If that would be true then exist no CD master (without using additional processing/EQing during playback) for audiophiles on this planet.
Your preset and the resulting high frequency boost are beyond any mastering standard.
Your preset creates M-size bass, M-size mids, but XL-size high frequency (especially hihats and cymbals).
Sorry, Brian you are not an audiophile.
You have obviously never mixed or mastered music for a professional release.

Via headphones using medium or even low volume my BASE 7 preset might sound sometimes muffled (and I do confess: with some tracks even "worse" than some modern loudness war masters) at medium or low volume.
But this is less annoying IMO than to hear your rollercoaster AGC, MB compression (-> original quiet parts get much too loud and original loud parts in relation get too quiet) plus harsh hihats, cymbals, etc. via a big speaker system using high volume.
I understand that this unnatural characteristics are difficult to hear with headphones.
Why do audio engineers use speakers and not headphones during mixing and mastering process ?

So your perspective (using headphones) is irrelevant, because this is not the real world of acoustics or the way music is meant to be played (-> loud via big speakers).

If I would use headphones then indeed your preset seemingly sounds more detailed and brighter than my BASE.
But via speakers it is absolute not appropiate for listening at high volume (too harsh hihats, cymbals, etc. and gain riding that negates natural volume balance).
Sorry, but this nonsense (or gaga brain artistic).
Another fundamental misunderstanding ?
What are the others ?

It (very high ratio - not limiting !) can lead to a lower dynamic range.
But only if you use it (very high ratio) in combination with a low threshold.
And this is not happening with my preset (because I use limting and not ultra compression !).
If the terms "compression" and "limiting" are used in one sentence then it is meant to define these two different characteristics of compression.
Is limiting compression ?
Yes, of course it is.
But limiting is not (traditional) compression, because it is a special kind of compression (a combination of very high ratio and very high threshold !).
If you use a combination of very high ratio and low threshold then this is called compression and not limiting.

I prefer limiting (-> to limit peaks !) and not (traditional) compression in Stereo Tool`s Multiband !
So, this not my fundamental misunderstanding.
You wanted to misunderstand me to prove that you are an expert and that I do not know what I do with the Multiband.
Yes, Brian you are the super-expert and I am some kind of an audio processing idiot.

It would really help a lot if you would try to understand first the technical details for yourself, before you try to explain to me what limiting is.

I have a question:
What does the TT DR Offline Meter ?
It calculates !
It calculates sums.
But the resulting DR value says nothing about the dynamic structure on the timeline (the dramatic volume order).
So those DR values contains no information about the dynamic balance on the timeline (the positions of the regions of relevant loudness changes) and the differences between unprocessed and processed files.

So if your preset creates a higher DR value (closer to the original file) than my BASE preset then this does not automatically mean that your preset better preserves the original dramatic mixing conception on the timeline (the loudness changes for different parts and the relative weighting).
Your better (higher) DR values are irrelevant because your processing creates very often this characteristics: -> original quiet parts get much too loud and original loud parts in relation get too quiet.

You have to analyze the different parts.
The structure of a track could be defined like this:
p1 p2 p3 p4 p5 p6 p7 ......

So before you try to explain things to me, it would be better if you try to understand what you can measure and what you cannot measure with a tool like the DR Offline Meter (feeding big WAV chunks of complete tracks).

Use your speakers with high volume instead of your headphones and you will understand (hear) what was meant (the inversion of the original dramatic mixing conception = original quiet parts get much too loud and original loud parts in relation get too quiet).

Your preset creates XL-size ballads (or single parts of whole tracks), but M-size for main (full energy) tracks (parts).

Play a ballad like "Beatles - She`s Leaving Home" and then a hot track like "Alien Ant Farm - Smooth Criminal" !!!

So all your DR measurements are irrelevant as long as you do not understand that music needs a dramatic order (a natural balance between balladesque/quiet and high energy parts).
Your preset negates that fact completely.

There is a difference between audiophiles and people with wrong listening equipment and/or ear damages that use EQing (HF boost) or complex processing to compensate their problems.

Your conclusions about my Noise Gate settings are naive.
Again you don`t understand what is happening.
It is much more than simple noise removal.
The heavy settings I use are necessary for my concept.
My AGC -12 dB RMS output, my Noise Gate settings (=multiband expansion !), the Multiband settings and the singleband are interdependent.
Play "John Miles - Music" with my BASE 7 V1/V2 and switch the Noise Gate on and off during quiet parts (intro etc.).
Then you will understand that it is necessary to keep the originally intended dramatic structure (the balance between quiet and loud parts).
And then play it with your preset !
Or play "Herman Hermits- No Milk Today" (the famous guitar intro).

You obviously also don`t understand what I do with the Multiband.
I have to use such extreme (non-standard) settings to create the best possible spectral balance for very old and new music.
Besides your artificial boosted hihat and cymbal sounds (that are less noticeable
with old music) you keep with your processing more or less the original spectral difference between old and new music.

You think that your processing leads to better consistency than my BASE V1/V2.
I deny that.
You cannot stand to listen to my crappy preset.
And I cannot stand to listen to your crappy preset.
Let us keep that status quo.

But never again I want to read anything evil like this George W. Bush identification.
Maybe I am an idiot - and you too.
But for sure none of us is such a "great" idiot like George W. Bush !

Peace !

I stopped reading after the third personal jab, following a three strikes rule. I don't mind having vigorous differences of opinion, but I do mind it when it's made personal, especially with the inference (or actually, direct statement) that I'm a liar.

There are boundaries that must be respected. Calling someone a liar, with no real good reason or proof, is a serious violation of that boundary, and is something I will not tolerate.

Take care.

Hey michi. Here is my review.
Your preset wins. And this new version is great.



Both of you guys presets are great and dynamic on most tracks. But Michi takes far better and more intelligent use of the gate and multiband compressor in Stereo Tool than Brian. And BASE 7 doesn't make annoying highs on speakers at good volume like Hypersonic does it.


Your preset sounds excellent at medium/high volume on speakers.


(Tested through Spotify's soul, rock, blues genre-lists. Speakers and headphones.)

Brians hypersonic sounds okay at low volume, but then the bass gets too weak. Also hypersonic kills mids too much. BASE 7 sounds nice all the way. Even on headphones (AKG K 272 HD).

M.M.Clausen

_________________
Marc M. Clausen - Born 1991. Audio Enthusiast Ever Since

I have the feeling I'm responding to a sock puppet (michi... M.M., similar typing styles, just joined today), and if true, that's really sad (if not, then my apologies), but whatever...

I made the discovery through discussion in another thread that the AGC was pushing down vocals. Since the AGC setting I was using is similar to what's in this preset, it would likely be having the same effect. This issue can be discussed more calmly and rationally than what was done.

At any rate, I took the liberty of comparing the bass output. How I did this was I took the settings of V2, which had a highpass at 20 Hz, and set the lowpass at the allow harmonics up to in Bass Boost, which in the case of V2, was 430 Hz. I left all other settings unchanged. For my presets, I used the highpass in the preset (30), setting the lowpass to the same 430 Hz. This does not hit the sound card driver, and thus does not go out to speakers or headphones, thus removing the debate about that. The track used was Justin Timberlake - Summer Love.

V2:

Dynamic Range: 6.8 / 6.3
Peak: -2.96 / -3.03
RMS: -11.1 / -10.6

HypersonicV6_Web:

Dynamic Range: 9.3 / 8.5
Peak: -0.60 / -0.59
RMS: -11.4 / -10.6

As you can see, my preset has a higher peak, and the RMS of the two are extremely close, with mine only slightly softer on the left channel.

So, with respect to the bass, the feeling of V2 having more "bass" is actually most likely coming from it having much stronger vocals, the low end of midrange.

With HypersonicV7_Beta1, the test shows the following:

Dynamic Range: 8.0 / 7.4
Peak: -0.75 / -0.63
RMS: -10.0 / -9.2

So, while I see what the two (?) of you are saying, the raw, objective data does not support it. Hypersonic is punchier. V7 adds in the low end midrange that was getting pushed out by the AGC.

Bass is still an issue I feel mine does not handle well enough, particularly on modern tracks that have heavy bass, but this is dealing with actual BASS, not the lower midrange (vocal regions).

Also, with respect to spectral balance and volume levels, when you turn the volume up, highs are going to sound louder, just like all other frequencies will sound louder. Further, you cannot possibly divine what volume I'm listening at. You're not here sitting with me. I cannot possibly see someone listening at rock concert levels for their day-to-day listening. The target volume I'm after is at the upper end of the generally accepted listening levels at which hearing damage does not happen within a matter of a few minutes to a couple of hours, but more along the lines of an extended listening period of 6-10 hours, which would coincide with the traditional work day of a full time job here in the United States (generally 8 hours).

If you want to continue to talk in a respectful manner, then I'll be more than happy to continue to discuss things. My goal isn't to have an exclusive lock on being right. I'm fallible, and if I can see a mistake, I'm happy to correct it, but I generally like to have logical arguments presented to show me where I am mistaken, not emotional rants.

I was not sure (but I prefered that you simply were not knowing all details).
But now you have lied definetly: There is an important difference if you say (write) that a person has (possibly) lied in one special situation or if you say (write) that a person is a liar ( character).
So you have lied definetly when you have written, that I have named you a liar.

I have not named you a liar !

It is difficult to discuss if you read only selected parts of my posts (because you think I am too rude and disrespectful to you).
Remember, we are here only some pixels on the screen !

IMO it is not respectful to write: and to allege conspiracy that Wavesector/M.M.Clausen and me are the same person.
If I need that kind of help, I would have used names like Bob Katz or Alan Parsons !
I have not known Wavesector/M.M.Clausen before he wrote here.
But of course now he is my best friend.
(PM to Wavesector/M.M.Clausen: Thank you very much old boy ! I will send you 50 € - as always !)

Brian, I respect you and you respect me.
Different people have different perspectives (ears).
I still believe that in the end these differences (disagreements) help you, me and others to improve their individual presets.

We have proved again that most of the time personal aggressions are based on misunderstandings/misinterpretations.

Agreed...
Perhaps. I've asked you if you had other things in the processing chain that colored the audio, and I didn't see a response. I know you use the VST bridge and the plugin stacker, which I do not use.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Take care.

My personal belief is that I'm listening in the 80-90dB range. The assertion is then that I am listening "too quitely". I don't quite understand that, as most of the time if I hand my headphones to someone else to listen, they remark about how "loud" I have it. Disregarding all of my personal experience and conceding that I'm listening too quietly, if that is indeed the case, then that means that a higher volume is being deemed as "appropriate". With that in mind, let's compare the curve of 80 and 90 to the curve of 110. 110-120 is generally "rock concert" level.

Take note of how the 110 curve is flatter on the low end of the frequency spectrum.

Now, take note of how the 80 and 90 curves have dips on the upper end of the frequency spectrum. Next, take note as to how that dip is only barely present with the 110 curve, but mainly the 110 curve simply continues upward.

This has implications for how loud or soft certain sounds will be at the respective listening levels. I think it is irresponsible to encourage such high volume levels by representing them as "normal" or "how it is meant to be". Promoting levels that lead to more rapid hearing damage is not something I care to encourage, so I thought I'd present this chart so that others can investigate things for themselves.

Truce... for a while!

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It would be pointless to discuss about the sound characteristics of different presets, if there would be any additional processing.
So, I do not understand that question.
Especially that you ask it, irritates me, because I remember that we have agreed in the other preset topic, when maximizer surprisingly declared that he uses a smiley face curve EQ post Stereo Tool.

If there is no neutral basis you cannot compare anything - apples and oranges.
Of course there are differences between different soundcards, amplifiers, speakers and headphones or a personal general gentle EQ setting (or panning) to compensate limitations of the room or the equipment.

So neutral basis means, that when you bypass Stereo Tool and play a lossless copy of a track with your PC, it sounds exactly (subjectively) like the original track played with your CD/DVD SA Player (both - the soundcard and the CD/DVD SA player connected to the same amplifier/receiver).
So the tradional hardware setup of CD/DVD SA player -> amplifier/receiver -> speakers and/or headphones is the reference.

It is true that I use Breakaway Live (trial) as host for the Stereo Tool DSP.
The reason is that way I can use Stereo Tool for all audio on my PC.

And Breakaway Live gives me the option to use in addition or instead of Stereo Tool other DSP, VST or DX-plugins (e.g. the TT DR VST-plugin post Stereo Tool to measure in realtime).
But (all active audio processing plugins) only as an extra/alternative option.

My presets for Stereo Tool are meant to be used without any additional processing/EQing.
And that should be a matter of course for everybody that release Stereo Tool presets.
Everything else would be a waste of time.


Special note to people that are still not convinced:
I have just received some emails from very close friends of mine.
Wait until Bob Katz, Alan Parsons, George Martin, Les Paul, John Lennon, Elvis Presley, (my) Buddy Holly, Enrico Caruso, Claude Debussy, Ludwig van Beethoven, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart and last but not least Johann Sebastian Bach will be registered and start to write here.
And all of of them will vote for my BASE preset.

I'm a real person. And yes i'm new. (Check out my new preset. It's awesome.)

_________________
Marc M. Clausen - Born 1991. Audio Enthusiast Ever Since