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 Post subject: Re: exp..
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:09 am 
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Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 5:40 pm
Posts: 475
Quote:
Anyway i am checking all these tracks.
Don't waste your time.
Just play Placebo - Every You And Me
with your MAXfm_v5 and in comparison with my TranS-EnhanCe Radio DR33.
Or another good track for this comparison:
The Watchmen - My Life Is Stereo

Important: stop playback and use 'Load' dialogue not 'Recent Preset Files' before you play any track or as alternative, you have to draw the timeline position slider back to the start time of the track a few times to create a neutral processing behaviour !

The AGC always leads for some tracks to musical non-sense volume jumps.
It is only luck when the Pre Amp/AGC combo virtual emulates relative volume relations (based on gating and slow rise after the track played before has reduced the volume in AGC, etc.).
But the truth comes to light when you stop playback (before you play the new track) and do fresh initialization of your processing ('Load' dialogue).
Quote:
I would gladly fix it, but i am not understand what you trying to tell me.
Is Agc too fast Up and/or down speed? Gain rush ?
You cannot fix it with Pre Amp and AGC (only without !).
Just listen and you will hear what is wrong and that without Pre Amp and without AGC the whole volume has (absolute and relative) much more consistency (based on original track internal volume relation).

Good night !


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 Post subject: Re: exp..
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:30 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:56 pm
Posts: 4151
ahh...
You are point to AGC, when it starts from top.

Well.. you can't have preset without AGC! It's simple as that. But that's not mean that you are wrong!!

That's the reason why i ask Hans to put "checkbox" into 2nd AGC witch mean to be "before MB" and to do exactly same as in this my preset. Actually new one will be better, so we can have and before and after multiband.
So when you start track, or you are going from low-level to high-level track, this 2nd AGC will have job to fast adapt level till Main-AGC comes down.

Anyway when "streaming" things are little better, because there is always "relative" constant input and moments with "audio-hole" are rare.

There is another thing.. you are using Winamp DSP or VST...
Things are different when you use Standalone!


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 Post subject: Re: exp..
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:05 am 
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Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 5:40 pm
Posts: 475
Quote:
Well.. you can't have preset without AGC! It's simple as that.
IMO this is true and not true at same time. 8-) :? :?:
:arrow: :idea:
AGC = Auto Gain Control
Ok, we agree that we have to manipulate the volume, because the differences between different tracks are too big.
The question is how (with what) we do the Auto Gain Control.
I do it not with the original AGC (+ Pre Amp).
My Auto Gain Control uses heavy Noise gate (= multiband expanding), heavy EQ before MB (instead of Pre Amp) and the (fast) Multiband does everything else instead of the original (slow) AGC.

And for the examples I have named my odd alternative AGC leads to more consistency (track internal and for different tracks on the playlist).
And this becomes obvious to your ears, when you do the comparison (with your v5 preset and with my DR33 preset as alternative).

But now I really have to search the way to my bed. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: exp..
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:43 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:56 pm
Posts: 4151
update:

- adapted pre-amp
- AGC - lowered "remove reamaining peeks" - I don't like it, but i must do that much better for sudden loud burst
- pretuned punch
- softer highs
Attachment:
Addiction_v7.rar [2.88 KiB]
Downloaded 419 times


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 Post subject: Re: exp..
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:55 pm 
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Bojcha: As long as you don't see black bars in the AGC display, lowering the 'Remove remaining peaks above' has no effect. And you've set the up speed so low that even 105% seems to hardly affect the sound (at least for the few tracks I've tried).


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 Post subject: Re: exp..
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:05 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:56 pm
Posts: 4151
I know that .. but there is songs like "my heart will go on" when voice strange vibrates by this clippers till agc gets down.
so i slightly rised down speed to compesate ..
Right now i am testing how will it be at "remove remaining peeks" at 100%

edit:
Seem at 100% still works good. i'll leave it at 100%
Attachment:
Addiction_v8.rar [2.86 KiB]
Downloaded 393 times


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 Post subject: Re: exp..
PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:53 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:56 pm
Posts: 4151
Hope this is final preset version.

Addiction v9 (final)

Now Streaming and FM version!
note: It's important that in FM preset "composite limiter" to be at 105%
Attachment:
Addiction_v9_Final.rar [5.89 KiB]
Downloaded 467 times
B^


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 Post subject: Re: exp..
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:41 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 5:40 pm
Posts: 475
Better !

But ....
(sorry)

For me AGC still does not make sense, because for every kind of music with an intro I have this annoying heavy gain reduction when the main part starts.
For the intro the Pre Amp AGC combo applies too much gain IMO and has to reduce it (noticeable !) when the main part starts.
Ironically it sounds as if a human being is spontaneously reacting and controlling the volume with a slider (sometimes it works somehow, but very often this is far from perfection = too much reduction).
If it would be consistency for the intro and the main part, but it is more as if intro and main part change their roles.
Original quiet intro, loud main part is transformed by the AGC Pre Amp combo to: loud intro, quiet (relative) main part.

This is a musical rollercoaster (like a photo negative).
Your are losing the punch when you need it.

So I have applied three changes for me to Addiction v9 which results for me in more consistency without these noticeable (!) AGC/Pre Amp volume rises and reductions:

1) I reduce Pre Amp to x 2.83 (+9.00 dB)

2) Turn the AGC off !!! (yes, we can !)

3) And in Multiband at 10k I raise clipping to 0.90, because without (original 1.81) I hear sometimes harsh tones (aggressive hihats, etc.).

(Please try it and compare both: your original v9 and this tweaked !)


I know this pro and contra AGC debate seems to be a ideological question (and I know that Hans and you have spend very much time to improve the AGC).

In the end everybody has to decide for hisself what his definition of consistency is and how to reach it (with or without AGC).
IMO it is obvious that something is wrong with this Pre Amp AGC combo when even a track like "U2 - One" (playing main part) leads to this heavy reduction in AGC (based on too much gain rise in Pre Amp and the defined target output in AGC).

In theory AGC should help to get more consistency (based on the idea that control over the target output level in RMS should be better for Multiband).
In practice I still wait for the proof (in Stereo Tool) of this theory.

So, Bojcha sorry my intention is not to hi-jack this topic and your preset.
But you asked for feedback.
And I just say what I think.


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 Post subject: Re: exp..
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:48 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:56 pm
Posts: 4151
I have better idea...
You set "VLevel" plugin in your player, then ST with AGC off and adjusted pre-amp.


AFAIK there are 3 "softwares" atm on planet (usable) witch can be called Audio processor. ST, BBP and Sonos.
All they have AGC in their preset/s. Does all three have that problem with AGC or only ST?


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 Post subject: Re: exp..
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:24 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 5:40 pm
Posts: 475
Quote:
I have better idea...
You set "VLevel" plugin in your player, then ST with AGC off and adjusted pre-amp.
Everybody that use your Addiction v9 preset and as alternative the same with the three changes I have described, can hear what is happening with the audio and what has more consistency.

So it is irrelevant what I say or what you try to ignore.
Quote:
AFAIK there are 3 "softwares" atm on planet (usable) witch can be called Audio processor. ST, BBP and Sonos.
All they have AGC in their preset/s. Does all three have that problem with AGC or only ST?
Is this a thread about the general techniques of audio processing ?
I thought you wanted feedback (only positive ?) about your preset.
I do not know every processor in detail.
But I don't remember that I have ever seen such a slow AGC gain rising time that you use with Addiction v9 in any other processor like BBP.
IMO this AGC (of your preset) is not good.
And that's it.
I think it is a problem (and that is a better alternative to bypass it - to judge this everybody has to use his own ears).
If you think that the AGC does what you want, then
... Congratulations !


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