Stereo Tool

Feedback, questions, settings and more...
      Home         Download         Donate         Register         Forums         Help   
It is currently Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:23 pm

All times are UTC+02:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:52 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 5:40 pm
Posts: 475
VLevel

Thanks to DJ-DOGGY !!!
viewtopic.php?p=4895#p4895

Oh, my God ! :o :o :o

I cannot believe that seemingly nobody knows this.

I have tried many AGC plugins.

And I thought that the new AGC modul of StereoTool 5 (beta) would be the thing I have been waiting for so long.

My problem:
I am playing all kind of different audio sources.
Original CDs (from 1982 - 2010), MP3s, Ogg, Flac, etc. and very often MP2 DVB radio broadcasts.
These MP2 DVB radio broadcasts are limited to -3 or -6 and some even to -9 dB !
So playing these MP2 mixed with some heavy loud tracks like Alien Ant Farm - Smooth Criminal, etc. always brings me (and StereoTool, other tools I have tried) in trouble.

The new AGC in StereoTool 5 (beta) helps.
But I am still not satisfied.

So to everyone:
Please try VLevel (with the default settings) !
It works like magic.
Most important: almost without any elimination of the internal dynamic structure of the sources (depends on the lookahead time).
But as DJ-DOGGY stated: the default settings are already perfect for most sources:
DJ-DOGGY wrote:Hans , the setting is at 2 seconds , thats the default setting and looks good .
I`ve tested this setting at lower (0.1-0.5) and higher (4-5 sec) and looks good at default setting of 2 seconds.
And Hans , I think that if this setting is set to more time , this causes in dinamic songs or balads or sometning to hold the gain stable for this period of time ( not to go low or high ) . It`s very important for songs with dinamic sound . 2-2.5 seconds will be enough.
viewtopic.php?p=4910#p4910

Obvious this Vlevel is Open Source.
The sourceforge.net project seems to be outdated (2003):
http://vlevel.sourceforge.net/about/
The same thing with:
http://pelit.koillismaa.fi/plugins/show.php?id=201
(a build from 2006)

But I have found a more uptodate foobar2000 VLevel dsp build (with some bugfixes) here:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/ind ... t&p=676710
I think this must be same site that DJ-DOGGY stumbled over ?

It works perfect with foobar2000 1.0.2.1 on my Win XP Pro SP2 machine.

I really hope, that Hans can implement this (VLevel) AGC principle in future versions of StereoTool.
DJ-DOGGY wrote:Remember ! If you integrate the work of this plugin into Stereotool Or whole plugin (I don`t know) , You will be the God man .
Or is there anybody (a programmer) out here, that can build a VST and/or a Winamp DSP version
of the Wiesinger VLevel source?

Discovering this VLevel DSP is like Christmas in springtime !

Try it !
Try it !
Try it !


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:12 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:40 am
Posts: 8949
Michi,

As I said in another thread, based on the description of this plugin it looks a lot (should be almost identical to) my Hard Limit filter - except that the Hard Limit filter uses a buffer size of only 0.010 seconds vs. 2 seconds (default setting) in VLevel.

This might (I still need to check, will do that later this weekend - I'm now busy getting version 5.00 released) sound similar to:
1. Download http://www.stereotool.com/download/dsp_ ... er_340.exe (Yes, I'm really telling you to download Stereo Tool version 3.40...)
2. Press RESET
3. Set Pre Amp higher (as high as you like, VLevel recommends 10-20)
4. ONLY turn on Final Limiter
5. Set the time (right slider) to maximum (1.60 seconds)

Keep everything else turned off.


Some notes:
1. VLevel is apparently based on dB-levels for increasing/decreasing volume levels, I'm using actual levels. This might mean that VLevel suffers (much) less from pre-peak volume drops.
2. This filter is based on the PEAK level, not on RMS level. But that can be changed.


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:19 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:56 pm
Posts: 3181
hi Michi..

It's a pity i can not use it on my transmitter, and at the same time i have a small latency. 8-)
This plugin is actually good, simple, and works simple, but it have latency which is not good thing for peoples who need smallest latency as possible.

Anyway .. i know that Hans can easily make this option to AGC.. and it will work better then Vlevel plugin.


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:12 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 5:40 pm
Posts: 475
Thank you Hans !

But I highly recommend to use the TT DR VST-plugin post StereoTool (v3.40) and in contrast post VLevel plugin to see the differences.
http://www.brainworx-music.de/en/download
At the bottom of the page - the TT DR Meter is free, the iLok is only required for their commercial plugins !
So if you were not fast enough to get it on
http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/
before they decided to give download access for members only,
this is your chance !

StereoTool 3.40 - using your suggested settings or even lower values for Pre Amp (7 would be enough for my purpose) - the output signal has a typical limiting characteristic (loss of dynamic -> compression) !

Using VLevel the result is: no extra compression.
So, it seems to me (I am using two instances of the TT DR VST-plugin sandwiching VLevel) that VLevel does not use any kind of (hard) limiting.
It works more or less as an AGC only.

So the magic of VLevel (watching the pre and post instances of TT DR VST-plugin) is the fact that it does not use a limiter !
It is too intelligent to need a limiter !

It seems even better: the post TT DR Meter indicates that VLevel even expands the dynamic range a little bit.
Though this might be a result of the possibility that the TT DR Meter uses different math. loading dependent on different peak levels.

Please, Hans if you have the time then try to analyse the concept of VLevel in detail !


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:40 am 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:40 am
Posts: 8949
I will - as I said I haven't had time to test it yet, and I expect it to work better than the filter in ST 3.40 (it also has a somewhat different purpose).


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:42 am 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:44 pm
Posts: 1089
Location: Bulgaria
To All .......... and Hans
Hans hard limit filter must be in stereotool ...... and must have as little as needed time for work ( as you say 0.010s) it`s good because this is the time for cut out the highest peaks .. nothing wrong ... but Vlevel (as again you said) is working with RMS level and working very good without high peaks , even with very low speeds of multiband ( i`m using 0.00005 for UP and same, closely the same for DOWN speed) , I`ve tested and no problem , nothing else is turned on , only multiband and hard limit . I must say that is perfect........


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:46 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 5:40 pm
Posts: 475
DJ-DOGGY wrote:hard limit filter must be in stereotool ...... and must have as little as needed time for work ( as you say 0.010s)
Yes, of course.
Using ST 3.40 and its Final Limiter is more or less an inappropiate emulation of VLevel.
It was not meant, that I want to abandon limiting at all in the future.
I only said that VLevel seemingly has no limiter.

And just for the record:
The indication of dynamic range expansion with VLevel must have been false positive due to different math. loading of TT DR Meter for different peak levels.
Because (tweaking Hans' settings for ST 3.40) I have created a better emulation of VLevel characteristic (with the same indication of seemingly dynamic range expansion in the post TT DR Meter as wit VLevel).

Instead of 10-20 for Pre Amp I am now using 2.30 in ST 3.40 !
Because of VLevel's special lookahead logic it does not make a difference for almost all kind of sources (even my DVB MP2 at max. - 9 dB) if you are using the default VLevel max .multiplier 25 (+28 dB) or drag it down to 3 (+9.5 dB).
It is not a fixed multiplier !
The maximal amplification is only applied if there is enough headroom for it (without any extra limiting) !

So, I am now really happy with my StereoTool 3.40 emulation of VLevel.
But:
Bojcha has already complained about the extra latency added by VLevel plugin.
Forget about this marginal latency.
It is nothing.
Use ST 3.40 (even at low latency) and then you know what latency is. :cry:


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:34 am 
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:56 pm
Posts: 3181
Well i tested this Vlevel plugin...
First must say that this Foobar sucks and his options and rest. But that's not the point.
Second, i can NOT forget about latency! Maybe you don't know but 90% of, let's say, orban's users are complain about latency.. ant that's only 20-40ms! Try to ask Leif about this feature in "Breakaway" (?) i wonder what answer will you get. Then ask yourself why his customers are more interested in ASIO version.

Not to mention that we all want minimum latency asio soundcards, STL links, and we do everything possible to reduce this OnAir Latency (broadcasters).
What i love most in this 5.0 version od StereoTool is actually lower Latency. Was 1.5sec now 100ms. Tremendous progress, isn't it?

In other hand it's not mistake to use something like this plugin in PreLimiting for Streaming. There is anyway latency there.

Finally .. this plugin is nothing else then "2 second Normalizer" (if buffer lenght is 2 sec. ofcourse)
Because it's stated "2sec" then must have and up and down speed. So there is no limiting, compressing there.

As i said.
This plugin is fast, easy to made and High Quality solution for Pre Limiting but only for streaming and for those who do not care about latency. But what about dam' FM broadcasters? :D

i'll support you all who loves this plugin. Actually i will use it for our radio-stream.
Again.. it's not mistake to have this "leveler" in stereotool's AGC, but like a option.


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:19 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 5:40 pm
Posts: 475
damn' FM broadcasters
That goes thru my head very often, too.

But, seriously.
I understand your problem (being a damn' FM broadcaster :mrgreen: ) with latency.

For non-broadcasters using foobar2000 with VLevel its latency is below perception stepping back and forth the playlist.
But the usage of ST 3.40 and its latency is very annoying for stepping.

So, I think we all agree that it is a good idea to integrate VLevel logic as an extra option to future versions of StereoTool.
It should be possible to reach nearly the same latency inside StereoTool 5.x as with the VLevel foobar plugin now.
Maybe too much latency for FM broadcasters.
But low enough for most non-broadcasters (watching TV or listening radio on the PC using StereoTool).
Using ST 3.40 watching TV or zapping radio stations is a pain in the a....
Though for watching TV (without zapping) you can compensate latency very easy inside FFdshow Post Processor (Video).


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:31 pm 

Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:39 pm
Posts: 98
Bojcha wrote:Well i tested this Vlevel plugin...
First must say that this Foobar sucks and his options and rest. But that's not the point.
Second, i can NOT forget about latency! Maybe you don't know but 90% of, let's say, orban's users are complain about latency.. ant that's only 20-40ms! Try to ask Leif about this feature in "Breakaway" (?) i wonder what answer will you get. Then ask yourself why his customers are more interested in ASIO version.

Not to mention that we all want minimum latency asio soundcards, STL links, and we do everything possible to reduce this OnAir Latency (broadcasters).
What i love most in this 5.0 version od StereoTool is actually lower Latency. Was 1.5sec now 100ms. Tremendous progress, isn't it?

In other hand it's not mistake to use something like this plugin in PreLimiting for Streaming. There is anyway latency there.

Finally .. this plugin is nothing else then "2 second Normalizer" (if buffer lenght is 2 sec. ofcourse)
Because it's stated "2sec" then must have and up and down speed. So there is no limiting, compressing there.

As i said.
This plugin is fast, easy to made and High Quality solution for Pre Limiting but only for streaming and for those who do not care about latency. But what about dam' FM broadcasters? :D

i'll support you all who loves this plugin. Actually i will use it for our radio-stream.
Again.. it's not mistake to have this "leveler" in stereotool's AGC, but like a option.
Bojcha, you're a wise man. It's just a normalizer and it is nice to see that people are enthusiastic about it. For everything there is a market, probably.... I just want an AGC to create a characteristic sound (multiband, gated?), hence I'm using a bit of distortion to create a personalized sound ;-)


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next

All times are UTC+02:00


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited