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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:52 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:22 am
Posts: 70
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma USA
I run an all-80s format, and for 80s pop in the United States, the most common processing chain was a pair of Texar Audio Prisms (4-band compressors) feeding an Orban Optimod 8100/A with the XT2 6-band limiter chassis on top.

Occasionally for greater consistency, stations might stick something like an Aphex Compellor (a very gentle singleband AGC) in front of the Prisms.

Here's a demo of the Prisms feeding a "barefoot" Optimod (no XT2):
http://youtu.be/EEFqru4Ny_g

Another demo w/ different settings, featuring an 80s song:
http://youtu.be/FKPJc8j4PkQ

Here's an Optimod WITH the XT2 limiter chassis, again w/ an 80s hit:
http://youtu.be/zUHlrhOi3wI

Another 8100/A + XT2 demo:
http://youtu.be/9acsmJokOZU

A 3rd 8100 / XT2 sample:
http://youtu.be/vc-uNoPIYdg

A fourth (LOVE this sound):
http://youtu.be/0TG27NAZgFs

one more:
http://youtu.be/2ZsX7ajr87k

The Optimod 9100 was a nearly identical design, modified only slightly for AM. Here's a demo:
http://youtu.be/JAGyWzue6Rg

Here it is in stereo:
http://youtu.be/-ew6Hfz5lKo

Here's the 9100, again in stereo, over the air in Japan:
http://youtu.be/YMAPKTnJtnA

I am looking for that big, wall of sound, multiband analog image that made stations leap off the radio dial in the 80s but were still musical. I"m thinking U.S. radio stations like Z100 in New York, WLS in Chicago, and KIIS-FM in Los Angeles.

I'm attempting to recreate that sound on my steam at http://www.streamlicensing.com/directory/?sid=1856 but I'm not arrogant enough to believe I'm even close... still, you can listen and maybe see which direction I'm headed.

I'm not happy with how far songs fade on my stream. I also don't feel like I'm getting track to track density consistency; it seems a denser track will be louder than a more "open" recording. Playing very open recordings from 1980 and then going to very dense recordings from 1989 can be tough. I'm not happy with the general level of density I'm getting overall... as silly as I'm sure this sounds, it's not as "busy" as I want it to be.

I'm not happy with my multiband settings. I the analog "snap" of a slower release time, but instead of that "pop" (which I think creates a more rhythmic sound & tends to highlight the drums), the more I slow the release the more it just sounds uncontrolled. I'm having a hard time getting everything to settle in to the mix; instruments still stand out at different levels when I'm try to squeeze everything together.

I understand many of the things I am asking Stereo Tool to do is exactly what it was designed NOT to do. These are qualities that are negatives when trying to compress audio without being obvious.

I would go back to something like Sound Solution, but I've become addicted to Stereo Tool's clarity! When I started having problems getting the sound I'm looking for, I tried going back to my "perfect" preset on Sound Solution, but I couldn't take the muddy, blurry, grungy mess that, until switching to Stereo Tool, had sounded good to me!

I've also tried (I believe) all of the included presets in Stereo Tool, and none of them sound to my ears like what I'm looking for.

Could anyone take a shot and try to recreate that "arena rock" 80s multiband radio sound for me?

If anyone would like to take a look at my current preset, I could upload it and link to it here.

THANKS!!

_________________
Gene Savage
BlackLight Radio
https://BlackLightRadio.com
Tulsa, Oklahoma USA


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:48 pm 

Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:20 pm
Posts: 64
I have a preset that you could try. I've been trying to make ST sound a bit more analog, like the old boxes did. All that new digital sound is a bit to static in my ears. This is a preset I've tuned over some time and just tid a comparsion test yesterday with the standard presets…it is abit louder too…

I'll send you a PM.

MrDonT


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:59 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:56 pm
Posts: 4151
First mistake that most of you make is number of MB band. Most of you want maximum number of bands and then want 8200 sound, wich is just not possible.
There is also many other reasons why "orban" sound is not possible in ST and i am actually thankful for that because goal is different.
Also there must be difference between FM and Streaming sound. Many wants FM sound on stream, wich is in my oppinion wrong.
However we all have different wishes for our sound and i can respect that.

So start from 5 or even 4 MB bands.. make bands fast at highs and slow at lows use much limiters for high end but still on reasonable thresh.. Use both compressors before and after MB. Rest should be easy.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:09 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:40 am
Posts: 11185
There are actually some new presets (that I forgot to add to version 7.41, but a few bugs have already been reported so I will probably have to make a 7.42 soon) that might do something like you want. Oddly, if you turn them on they really sound 'dirty' and bad. But... if you then switch back to a normal preset it sounds boring.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:42 pm 

Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:20 pm
Posts: 64
The legendary Z100 sound from Fotis time never used the XT2 box. According to a note Frank wrote some years ago on a forum they used a setup combining Prism, a modified Dominator (pre vigilante), something like an aural exiter for sparkle feed to a barefoot 8100 stipped for most cards using the HF limiter and the stereoencoder. There was also a well tuned composite clipper in that chain.

But in the end its all aboun tuning each bit little by little no matter what setup you use. Most out of the box solutions never realy work that good. StereoTool is one of the few that does, but its easy to get tuned way out.

Its not easy to find a preset that sounds good on all music from the 60 up to today, but with some compromises it can be done.

(Edited a bit for spelling.)


Last edited by MrDonT on Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:40 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:22 am
Posts: 70
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma USA
MrDonT, my WORD that preset IS dense! :o That may actually be a bit much for me, but I have a feeling I can learn a lot from your settings. If you willing, I may ask you a few questions in PMs about some of your setting choices... just looking at the numbers, some of them seem counter-intuitive, but I'm sure you have your reasons... I look forward to learning what those are. :)

You mentioned that Foti never used the XT2 at Z100... I didn't know that! On one of the radio discussions boards, I had a number of engineers try and tell me the biggest stations used only the most gentle and basic of processing... HAR-HAR-HAR!!! I was there, I heard the stations, I used to drive from town to town just to listen to stations, their programming and their processing, and most stations beat the LIFE out of the music. The big markets had good sound, but many smaller markets, attempting to duplicate the loudness of the big markets, ended up crushing the music until it was almost unrecognizable.

I remember hearing about the Vigilante, based on his modifications at Z100, but never knowingly heard it on-air... I imagine it was spectacular! I was always surprised he was going with a 3-band peak limiter instead of a 6 (well, 5) band limiter, but again he obviously had his reasons, and it worked for the time.

I bet the Aural Exciter was the Aphex version that was so hot at the time. I remember hearing a demo in a sound booth of the Aural Exciter and was shocked and impressed (they used cassettes for background tracks for performers, and rolled off the highs before feeding it back to the Exciter which returned the upper end), but I haven't had access to one in almost 30 years and the DSP versions I've tried just sound like they're adding noise.

As I remember, Aphex at the time was promoting the "pure" processing chain of the Compellor into the Aural Exciter, then into the Dominator. Don't know how many stations used it, but I'm sure it was smooth.

...I'm continuing to listen to your preset while I type, and now that my ears have adjusted a bit, it does remind me a bit of the local top 40 I worked at... VERY gritty, but the density and dynamic impact does remind me quite a bit of the Prisms into the 8100 & XT2. You're gotten a lot closer than I have! Perhaps I can back some things off on this preset and get closer to what I want for streaming... This is certainly a screamer!!

Bojcha, I absolutely do NOT want the 8200 sound... that was Orban's first attempt at digital and, as with most first attempts at digital, it was a gritty mess as far as I'm concerned. I'm looking for the benefits (and drawbacks, lots of them, really) of the analog 8100. The limitations of analog circuitry put certain boundaries on what could be done with the processing, and those limits are what I'm trying to duplicate.

You say the "goal" of Stereo Tool and the Optimod is different... really? I know Bob Orban's goal was to make clean, loud audio a possibility. (Please don't blame the people who set up the Optimods for the overprocessed sound that became so popular; it drove him crazy to hear his box abused that way.) As I understand it, that is the goal of Stereo Tool as well. I am certain both tools go about it in different ways, which explains why Stereo Tool sounds so much cleaner than the Optimod... But I would think with all of the controls Hans has made available to us, it ought to get Stereo Tool to react similarly to how the 8100/A reacted to sound.

I also do not want to truly crush my stream like an FM; there is no loudness war online, and the extreme limiting and clipping can work against the mp3 / AAC codecs. You and I are in total agreement that the output of a fully processed / clipped signal ready for broadcast would be terrible for a stream. My goal is to create the texture of the 1980s processors without trying to reach the absolute loudness of the 1980s stations.

Imagine a gently set pair of Audio Prisms, fed into the gently-set AGC of the Optimod, then finally barely hitting the XT2 limiters with any settings on it set for minimum (I can't remember how much control was allowed in the XT2). Grab the signal right there, before it hits the final clippers, before the final conditioning that slammed the audio right up against 100%... That's what I'm looking to create.

It should sound to a LISTENER like the output of one of the Flame-Throwin', Hot-Rockin' top 40 stations of the 80s, but it shouldn't look on a SCOPE like those stations did (where the needle didn't move).

I also want to add that if I was programing contemporary music, or a mix of 80s to now, I would NOT be trying to get this sound. Stereo Tool can get quite loud and still sound very open and uncompressed until you compare it to the original source... and it would be easy to get a great, open clean sound out of Stereo Tool for any contemporary format. It is only because I'm trying to recreate the sound of the decade, "the way you remember the songs sounding on the radio" that I'm making this unusual request. I doubt (I would hope!) most stations would NOT want this sound. Stereo Tool is capable of so much more!

Your suggestions on settings are excellent, and some of them I'd already put into place... it tells me I'm headed in the right direction... thank you!

HVZ, I look forward to hearing the new presets! They sound like they might get me closer to my goal. Thanks for the information! you're right that I'm looking for an "exciting" sound... which some people would label "fatiguing." If any processor can create that sound without driving listeners away, I'm convinced it's Stereo Tool. 8-)

I'm a complete Stereo Tool convert; I couldn't go back to any other DSP processor, and after hearing a demo of the Optimod-PC 1100, I'd much rather have Stereo Tool than Orban's latest product! :)

Thanks again, everybody, for your input. It really is appreciated!!

_________________
Gene Savage
BlackLight Radio
https://BlackLightRadio.com
Tulsa, Oklahoma USA


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:40 am 

Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:20 pm
Posts: 64
Just turn down "Multiband Drive" to loosen the "briefs" a bit.

It wasnt my intention to begin with to try and re-make the cool 80-sound, but after some tweeking i found an old tape of Z100…studied the way it sounded and then it gave me a few ideas. Number one is dont look at the meters and dont count dbs. Use your ears, adjust a bit and then go away. Come back with fresh ears, turn the volume almost all the way down, let it settle and then some adjustments manybe. Same round again with higher volumes. Then start all over.

And dont listen to all the gurus :) digital prosessing is all about math, analog is about feeling. But they do combine nicely when used the right way.

BTW, thanks for the gentle Prism like feedback :)

Edit: There is a kind of a manual over in the share settings section. I feed it so that input is between -12 and -6 db. Mainly because I dont know what scale ST uses, if its dbu or dbfs... And that I dont like the way it starts to sound when the input get to high. Might be just in my head...but then I also like to have some headroom.

MrDonT


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:40 am 

Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:20 pm
Posts: 64
BlackLight,

See PM.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:24 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:18 am
Posts: 1
Hey Blacklight and gang,

I threw this together quickly, aiming to emulate that warm analogue sound. https://www.dropbox.com/s/akkqpzr0xmuzn ... ptimod.sts

Let me know what you think.

(Couldn't work out how to attach the file, so just put it on my dropbox)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:37 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:22 am
Posts: 70
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma USA
Alex, I like that!

Lots of pumpy, bright, tight sound... a pretty good imitation of some of the 80s processing I heard without it being "nailed to the wall." That's good for the encoders which need SOME breathing room to figure out what to keep and what to throw away.

Looking through the settings, some of them duplicate what my ear has told me to do here; others seem so counter-intuitive... but I can't argue with the sound! I love being surprised like this.

It's impressive to me that you're getting this consistent a sound with only 4 bands... and the crossover points aren't at ALL what I would have expected. Again, if it works, I can't knock it! :lol:

Thanks for sharing this! I keep tweaking my sound, learning from you guys, and I don't know if I'll end up with an 80s Top 40 sound or not, but whatever I do, I'll share it here... and I think it may be getting close to time for me to do so.

I still have so much to learn!!!

_________________
Gene Savage
BlackLight Radio
https://BlackLightRadio.com
Tulsa, Oklahoma USA


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